And so ends eBay DevCon08…

Andy GeldmanOn 06.19.2008 at 3:02 am Said:

I wasn’t at the conference (maybe next year…) but I followed it closely and I think the announcements are the most significant since the API became free in 2005.

Project Echo is a tentative step towards Facebook-style applications which will give great integration and much better exposure for developers.

I find the Active Content Policy a little strange… they want to move listing content to a different domain AND pre-approve widgets? This would suggest a lot of problems with hacking from embedded Flash and JavaScript… but I’ve not heard anything to suggest that this has been happening. The Policy will cause lots of difficulties for developers of any in-listing enhancements such as galleries and zoomable pictures, and also ad-hoc JavaScript. There seems to be lots to lose with this proposed Policy and no clear gain.

Those are the two biggies from my point of view.

MechelleOn 06.19.2008 at 3:53 am Said:

hmmm - what could this woman possibly be thinking using a slide with this message??

“Generally, the eBay Community:

Doesn’t like to read

Especially doesn’t like to read corporate-sounding things

Might be most comfortable at a high school reading level

Thinks they can figure software out themselves”
presented by Debbie Levitt

I bet she began with might (”Might be most comfortable at a high school reading level”), because she was avoiding saying junior high- LOL. It isn’t that far fetched - it is commonly thought the general US public reads at grade 8- some even argue 6.

However, I don’t think she is very knowledgeable about her subject group. For someone who works for these - no reason to sugar coat her perception of her customers- uneducated, unmotivated, easily overwhelmed, yet overly confident software users you would think she would have enough sense to not broadcast her opinion of her own customer base in public for not only the presentation viewing, but also on the publicly available slides. I think she is way off base in her assessment of “eBay sellers”- I would be very interested in exploring her data.

Well, I await the application designed specifically for the illiterate “eBay seller”.

DebbieOn 06.19.2008 at 4:17 am Said:

I’m the woman who used the slide… the slide that got approved by eBay for it’s content and eBay legal. So before you shoot me for saying these things, think about eBay APPROVING me saying these things. I don’t work for eBay. If you’re at Live, please come talk to me as I would be happy to meet you and share what I know with you.

Don’t take it personally. But it’s generally true. And I am not describing people the way you are, so please don’t put words in my mouth.

My presentation was to software developers. I am trying to make developers understand that their target audience is not the savviest people on the planet. If Developers got that, so many pieces of eBay software wouldn’t be so awful to use or figure out. I am trying to get them to make it so easy your Grandma can use it.

I know lots of grandparents selling on eBay. They didn’t go to graduate school and maybe not to college. They like to read SIMPLE things written simply… so I say write at a high school level, not on the level of university stuff or a technical handbook. They don’t like to read, just like eBay shoppers don’t like to read. They don’t want to go read help files.

Well, I don’t have to repeat my slide, but I do stand by it. I know it’s not the most sugar-coated slide in town, but I’ve given it for two years in a row, and eBay approved it both years. So they must be OK with me saying that in public. And Richard thought it was interesting or important enough to take a picture of it.

When the eBay software gets easier to learn and easier to use because the developers took my advice, you can thank me. Please don’t be insulted as insulting people is not my intention. I think developers insult you now by making software that’s hard to learn and hard to use, and then by not supporting it. No pictures were taken of that, but I ripped them a new one about that too.

DakotaOn 06.19.2008 at 6:49 am Said:

I can’t believe that eBay is so busy developing all of this snazzy stuff yet they have not taken care of the real issues on eBay.

We still don’t have the answers to all of the issues presented throughout eBay Ink and it would be nice to get those answers before the eBay high overtakes those that have the answers.

delynsimonsOn 06.19.2008 at 6:56 am Said:

Thanks for the great coverage, blogging, twittering and flickering of DevCon, Richard! We had a great time with all of our developers building apps on the eBay platform. Have a great eBay Live!

Delyn
Platform Marketing

implogOn 06.19.2008 at 12:20 pm Said:

Hi Debbie:

I have copied your list of “eBay Seller’s Potential Problems” from your 2008 DevCon presentation below. Frankly, it gave me sheer horror.

I’m wondering if you have sold much on eBay, particularly since May 19th. If not, you might want to do a little more research and update your list on eBay seller’s potential problems.

eBay Sellers’ Potential Problems

• Listing is difficult, time-consuming
• Don’t know how to edit or batch edit photos
• Communication with shoppers and buyers
• Promotions and loyalty
• Sales data—what to do with weak items
• Making the most of eBay fees
• More work than staff
• Storage and shipping

Is that all?

Really?

REALLY?

Please address the new reality of eBay so developer’s can “take your advice”. Only then will I and many other sellers damaged by eBay’s “enhancements” be in a position to “thank you”.

AnitaOn 06.19.2008 at 12:27 pm Said:

As a developer, I can appreciate what Debbie was trying to say with that slide. Developers often forget that users of software don’t see things the same way as we do. Things that are second nature to us will have “regular” people scratching their heads. And it’s true that people hate to read manuals or help screens and telling them to RTFM isn’t the solution.

It doesn’t help that the same approach is often taken to manuals, making them difficult for non-developers to understand. It’s not done on purpose, but is simply due to the developer not seeing things from the user’s perspective. We speak our own language and often forget to translate it to English, both in the software and in the manuals that go with it.

A guy I worked for once told our software team to pretend we were designing software for our grandmothers and not for kids, since a lot of fifth-graders were more technically literate than their parents.

So, my point is that the slide was very appropriate for the target audience

implogOn 06.19.2008 at 3:28 pm Said:

Hi Anita:

I think what triggered the reaction to Debbie Levitt’s presentation slides was their remarkable disconnect with post May 19, 2008 eBay.

We would all agree that there is a wide range of sophistication when it comes to eBay users. All of us that is except eBay.

Ebay assumes their buyers read and understand the instructions and follow the online directions of both eBay and individual sellers.

But the buyers don’t.

Ebay sellers are now unprotected from unsophisticated and criminal buyers. Sellers are being scammed, damaged and in some cases suspended because eBay attributes a sophistication (and honesty) to their buyers that you, Debbie Levitt, developers and sellers know does not exist in reality.

Ebay tells buyers that a 4 score left for a seller in their “Detailed Seller Rating” is good but expects buyers to know that it is bad. Buyers are not that sophisticated.

Ebay offers buyers the option of leaving a seller a Neutral feedback rating but expects buyers to know that leaving a Neutral is the same as leaving Negative feedback. Buyers are not that sophisticated.

Even IF eBay posted for buyers the truth about the new seller rating system and feedback changes, in the words of Ms. Levitt with reference to eBay:

“They (grandparents) don’t like to read, just like eBay shoppers don’t like to read. They don’t want to go read help files.”

Developers — Want to build a killer ap?

Think outside the box. Think outside May 19th, 2008

Create protection for eBay’s sellers from the psycho negative feedback bombers, the PayPal chargeback thieves, buyers who do not pay yet are allowed to leave sellers negative feedback and eBay’s random suspension of sellers for unsubstantiated policy violations among other dangers.

MechelleOn 06.19.2008 at 4:02 pm Said:

@Debbie

First- yes you did not say illiterate- I was being obnoxious - I apologize

I understand your sentiment, however I find your presentation offensive. I recognize that your audience for this presentation are developing applications for eBay sellers, but feel the message could have and should be premised on the typical attributes of the American culture. These traits are not relative to level of education and/or reading levels, rather a result of our cultural demands.

The typical attitude of people in our culture is that they do not have TIME TO WASTE on reading tedious media. We want the information straight forward and fast so we can get to the task quickly. We jump in and then learn how to swim, because we are impatient due to feeling the pressure of the ticking clock reminding us there is too much to do and not enough time to get it done.

We typically do not like changes to our routine- and in the long run results in inefficient production. So, why do we avoid change if it will improve our production? Because we will lose time learning something new. Our reality of to much to do and not enough time causes short run thinking- we ignore the long term benefits sacrificing what would result in lessening the amount of time to complete the task for what is familiar and a known pattern that achieves the result we need.

Hands on and/or interactive learning is typically more appealing and effective. Again this is not due to an inability to understand written direction or not wanting to read. Learning while doing allows for the perception of working toward the goal- reading the instructions creates anxiety due to feeling as though nothing is being accomplished. So we jump into learning new software- this reaction is not due to a belief we can figure it out and do not need instruction, can’t understand instruction, or feel over whelmed by written instruction it is a result of impatience derived from the lack of having enough time to spend reading a manual, because it feels as though nothing is getting done therefore is a waste of time.

I do not think every individual in the population has the education and/or the intellectual capability to read material at the level of higher education or specific to a specialization. However, I also do not believe the population of eBay sellers mirrors the general population. I assert that the population of sellers leans more on those with higher education and/or higher intellectual capacities as a whole. Opposed to the general population in the US, which is composed largely of the average intellectual capacity and limited education.

People who have jumped into eBay to create or augment their business have done so with an entrepreneurial spirit not because of deficiencies in their intelligence, educational background, or inability to succeed in the more traditional occupations.

The premise of your argument is wrong and grossly presented.

I am not shocked to learn that eBay approved this slide, because eBay is entirely ignorant of its customer base in who they are, what they do, and what they need. There is no clearer evidence of their failings than the changes they have implemented, which in fact create much more difficulty for the seller to get their job done, severe levels of anxiety, and feelings of hopelessness and defeatism.

Debbie LevittOn 06.20.2008 at 5:03 am Said:

So let me get this right.

1) A bunch of people who were NOT at my seminar are angry about what my slide says, not knowing what I said with the slide or what any other slide said before or after it? But rather than ask, you’re just assuming, and you’re mad. ?!?!?!

2) You expect me to tell Developers, people who program applications for buyers and sellers to use, how to fix the things you hate about eBay? I don’t think they can fix those! I don’t think a new widget is going to change the “enhancements” that you don’t like. This was a presentation to Developers about software and tools they can make for the community.

3) Mechelle, I didn’t get through your post as I don’t have time to read all of it. I’d say call me… my phone number is on our website, and I’ll be back at my desk on Wednesday. We can talk it out. But other than that, I’ve also written this to you.

http://aswas.typepad.com/hall_of_fame/2008/06/not-reading-or.html

I will not get into slinging matches with people who are angry at eBay about things that have nothing to do with what my presentation said to an audience of software developers.

DagnyOn 06.20.2008 at 7:22 am Said:

Oh my….The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Andy GeldmanOn 06.20.2008 at 8:01 am Said:

Wow.

This discussion has gone a long way on what should have been an uncontroversial slide.

I think it can be restated as:

“Generally, any one who uses a computer:

Doesn’t like to read….etc. etc.”

I have no doubt whatsoever that generally that’s all true, and every usability professional you talk to or interface design book you read will tell you the same thing.

If you are a developer, have you ever made up for a poor interface design by adding “helpful” text explaining what it means? If so, did your users read it? No, of course they didn’t, because most users don’t read.

Applications should be designed for the lowest common denominator, that’s all it means.

ex-ebay-sellerOn 06.20.2008 at 9:50 am Said:

@debbie

I wonder if any Blackthorne developers were there to hear your sessions?

I’ve had to use their poorly programmed steaming pile of poo software for the past 8 years since eBay ran most every other auction management software developer out of business.

Not having to use SAPro anymore is the best thing I like about not selling on eBay anymore.

implogOn 06.20.2008 at 10:04 am Said:

@ Debbie

Hi Debbie:

You responded here, as you wrote, to “get this right“. I’m not sure you succeeded.

You accuse people of “assuming” things about your slides. Your slides speak for themselves.

If I presented a slide that said “Obama For President” then put it online one might reasonably assume I supported Obama. It wouldn’t matter if in the presentation I stated “I am not sure who should be president”.

The slide speaks for itself.

Your slide titled “eBay Sellers’ Potential Problems” was incomplete. The list of problems facing eBay sellers mushroomed on May 19th, 2008.

It doesn’t matter if someone was in the first row at your presentation or viewed your presentation slides on a notebook in Phuket, your list of seller problems needs to be updated.

You wrote with regards to your presentation and/or slides, “…I’ve given it for two years in a row, and eBay approved it both years.” You are delivering information that is two years old. Ebay is not as it was one year ago much less two years ago.

As you wrote on your blog in your snarky post for which you provide a link above, “We’re a fast-paced world now.”

You are right. This is a fast paced world. Catch up. Update your slides.

You would be doing a great service to your clients if you stayed current. Post May 19, 2008 eBay offers developers new opportunities and opportunity is seldom a lengthy visitor.

You write “I will not get into slinging matches with people who are angry at eBay” but you have done just that. You are doing it on this blog and on your own blog.

Your presentation is based on pre May 19th thinking. It makes you seem, with all due respect, unprofessional at best.

As far as eBay “approving” your slides,

well……..

DebbieOn 06.20.2008 at 10:24 am Said:

Not slinging. Defending. And I’m allowed to defend myself when people who didn’t hear what I said and are reading the worst into what I was trying to say are writing what they are writing in public.

The end.