Knowing Where You Stand

AmberOn 05.21.2008 at 9:40 am Said:

From the January announcement:

At eBay, we consider a buyer dissatisfied if:

The buyer leaves a 1 or 2 DSR rating on any of the attributes
A seller get complaints from buyers about items being “significantly not as described” or “item not received”
A seller receives negative or neutral feedback from the buyer.
If a seller has any of these activities in the last 30 days, these will cumulatively count as dissatisfied customers for that seller. We then calculate what percentage dissatisfied customers represent of a seller’s total customers.

TonyOn 05.21.2008 at 9:43 am Said:

Richard not quite so fast there. If you’re not counting neutrals, then why are you discounting feedback not received, which by default is a neutral.

AmberOn 05.21.2008 at 9:45 am Said:

More info from the announcements:

“When a buyer doesn’t respond to the Unpaid Item (UPI) process the negative or neutral Feedback they have left for that transaction will be removed.
When a member is suspended, all their negative and neutral Feedback will be removed.
Buyers must wait 3 days before leaving negative or neutral Feedback for sellers with an established track record, to encourage communication. ”

Notice how neutrals and negatives are mentioned together in every instance above? Neutrals = Negative in every way but one:

They do not affect the total feedback score (ie the number next to your user id).

Saying a neutral is “Not a Positive” is merely spin. Neutrals are being used in seller sanctions and therefore are not NEUTRAL. This has very little to do with the Positive Feedback percentage. That’s the least of the problems most sellers will face.

AmberOn 05.21.2008 at 9:54 am Said:

neutral (ntrl, ny-)

ADJECTIVE:

Not aligned with, supporting, or favoring either side in a war, dispute, or contest.
Belonging to neither side in a controversy: on neutral ground.
Belonging to neither kind; not one thing or the other.

Spin it any way you like, including Neutrals in the dissatisfaction rating is negating its neutrality. It is being assigned a side/value. Neutral does not mean neutral anymore and should be removed entirely from the site.

ChrisOn 05.21.2008 at 10:00 am Said:

If a buyer bought four items from the same seller on the same day it would still only be counted as one for feedback purposes. But if a buyer of a single item gave a negative and low stars it would be counted as two for SNP purposes. Those poor goal posts must be getting terribly wobbly from all the moving.

Patricia1On 05.21.2008 at 10:03 am Said:

Richard - neutral means just that - not yes and not no and should NOT be counted at all - not against positives - not against negatives. Somebody doesn’t understand the meaning of neutral and I don’t think its me. If I’m not impressed with the democrat running for president and I’m not impressed by the republician running for president I may just remain “neutral” and not vote at all…neutral means nothing! If America is positive and Canada is neutral does that mean Canada’s neutral needs to be deducted from America’s positive?

On the other hand - changing all neutrals to negatives retroactively - well, I’m too much of a lady to even comment on that

Mark ClassicOn 05.21.2008 at 10:06 am Said:

Richard

Can you at least acknowledge the SNP concerns raised here?

In the name of transparency and communication…

Because multiple accounts are being closed right now for having ONE negative in the last 30 days.

Now is the time to use your position to communicate with top management, don’t you think?

Please.

Mark

AmberOn 05.21.2008 at 10:09 am Said:

LOL Patricia,

Someone truly doesn’t understand the definition of neutral. That’s why I posted it.

And the % is the least of our worries, as pointed out above.

As for the retroactive slap, MOST sellers saw this coming. Why else did the “retaliatory” sellers leave neg for neutral? To force the MFW and get their % up prior to this change. The inclusion in the SNP enforcement, initially done under a shroud of secrecy, was a major clue on the direction ebay was going to take.

When ebay first discussed feedback recency a few years ago, the neutral aspect was a non-issue, so most sellers weren’t nearly as upset. Many, in fact, were very much in favor of it. Had they known that eBay would weight neutrals this way, I think they would have reacted quite differently.

MistyOn 05.21.2008 at 10:14 am Said:

@ Chris & Tony

I am also a low volume seller I will be lucky to list 20 items a month at most sometimes not even that many I sell antiques and collectibles as a hobby I do not have a crew of people out hunting down these item’s for me to list I choose and purchase my own items to maintain the quality I wish to sell it is a hobby for me nothing more I wish to keep it this way.

The day I have to go out and obtain items for resale just to keep my numbers up so I don’t get suspended is the day it is no longer just a hobby, further more in forcing one to obtain things for resale volume will in effect lower the quality of items because the time and care can not be put into finding the high quality.

I have never had a INR, SNAD, SNP or anything like that ever filed on me in my over 10 years here, but I have had a NPB and a buyer who did not read the description (or assumed the item was better than described)I add several pictures (600×600) of all angles to my listings and describe every flaw even if only a factory flaw so they know exactly what they are buying before they bid.

My point is it will only take one or two of these buyers to cause me to be suspended with my low volume and as you pointed out, what about all my other buyers waiting on their purchases (as I list in small bunches)in which I will have no way to communicate with them if suspended?… this surely would not be a good buyer experience for them at the hands of eBay…. and would not be a good seller experience to be suspended because of a NPB… so I agree this issue is in need of urgent attention.

MechelleOn 05.21.2008 at 10:15 am Said:

@Richard

are you kidding

the term neutral has explicitly defined attributes.
Not taking side
neither to the left or the right
disinterested
impartial
uninvolved
unbiased

eBay has determined they have the authority to redefine terminology.

Neutral was NEVER COUNTED AS A POSITIVE- IT DIDN’T EFFECT THE FEEDBACK RATING IN EITHER DIRECTION- THUS IT WAS NEUTRAL- IMPARTIAL, UNBIASED

Receiving a neutral NEVER enhanced feedback ratings nor detracted from them- now they most certainly do carry a negative consequence causing a severe distortion of the individuals reputation.

Is this yet another example of transparency?? are you ever going to answer my question of your opinion of the seller who received a negative due to packing a vase (expensive vase) with peanuts? or the seller who received a negative 2 months after picking the table up in person- in person had opportunity to state dissatisfaction at the time but waited two months just to give that seller a negative??

AmberOn 05.21.2008 at 10:19 am Said:

Mark, just wait…it’ll get much, much worse.

Wait until next year in late January/ early February as buyers who purchased over the holidays leave negative feedback.

Complaints and dissatisfaction over holiday sales are traditionally higher:

Slower delivery times–higher mail volume = poorer carrier service.

Last minute shoppers–many have unreasonable expectations about delivery times

Cheap-skates–some buyers get caught up in bidding wars, overpay for hard-to-find items, then take it out on the sellers

Returns–many sellers don’t accept buyer’s remorse returns. Those sellers will be slammed next season as buyer leave negatives for refusing returns on duplicate or unwanted items.

All of this feedback left in the slow-down where there are few other sales to buffer the impact of those notoriously picky buyers.

After February, those few small volume sellers who weathered the changes will be sanctioned off the site.

JJHOn 05.21.2008 at 10:41 am Said:

“I don’t see how neutrals are being “counted as negatives” rather they’re NOT being counted as positives.”

Richard, get real. I mean really, how can you say that?.

Neutral AND negative are EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

The formula:

Positive Count = P
Neutral Count = Nu
Negative Count = Ng

Percentage = 100* (P / (P + Nu + Ng))

How can you sit there and tell use that a Neutral and a Negative are NOT the same thing.

[Sentence edited: see Comment Policy] That’s your PUBLISHED formula. It comes up when you roll your mouse cursor over “[How is the feedback percentage calculated?]“, and it shows the formula with YOUR [as in "you" the user] numbers. Sorry. You’re wrong.

JJHOn 05.21.2008 at 10:44 am Said:

…And I meant to add that if Neutrals weren’t counted, then “Nu” wouldn’t be in the formula. It would be:

100 * (P / (P + Ng))

TheBrewsNewsOn 05.21.2008 at 11:00 am Said:

@Richard

Quote: “I don’t see how neutrals are being “counted as negatives” rather they’re NOT being counted as positives. It seems that neutrals are now defined exactly as neutrals (neither positive nor negative) and a “neutral” rating shouldn’t be included in a “positive” score.”

*************

So, for someone today who has 99 positives and 1 neutral, their new recalculated score would be 99% positive. How is that different from someone’s score who has 99 positives and 1 negative? The percentage is exactly the same. Thus neutrals = negatives because both have the same effect in how the percentage is scored.

Perhaps it is eBay’s reasoning that the “level” of dissatisfaction is the difference between a neutral and negative and whether there is a “low” level of dissatisfaction (neutral) or a “high” level of dissatisfaction (negative), the result should be a decrease in the feedback score percentage being reported. As previously stated, the decrease in the feedback score percentage is the same whether the buyer left a neutral or a negative.

However, one would argue that when a customer is only somewhat (but not completely) satisfied then the buyer leaves a neutral. They leave the neutral because there were NOT dissatisfied but they were not quite satisfied enough to leave a positive.

Previously, a neutral rating on eBay meant that the positive feedback score did not decrease. Because of this retroactive change in scoring feedback, eBay has just negated what the buyer had been told about feedback scoring for their seller for the last 12. But, Pierre obviously knows what is best for eBay buyers since they must not understand what is best for them, the sellers, or the marketplace (just as Pierre said he knows better than us what is best for our business).

Obviously my main problems relating to this issue are (1) the scoring change was made retroactively and (2) there was no communicating with buyers or sellers explaining that a change in scoring would be made.

We can agree to disagree over whether a buyer who leaves a neutral is mostly satisfied or mildly dissatisfied and whether a neutral should have the same scoring effect as a negative but Richard I can find no good argument whatsoever for retroactively changing the scoring or for the lack of communication to notify us that the scoring change would be made.

TheBrewsNewsOn 05.21.2008 at 11:53 am Said:

Richard, it’s not so much that the rules of the Playground are changing… because as participants we can make adjustments and follow the new rules or take our ball and go home.

The much bigger problem is that

>> half the time we don’t know what the rules are (ie violating the new unannounced digital delivery policy and having our auctions removed prior to any announcement of a policy change)

>> and the new scoring is applied retroactively (neutrals = negative)

Even if every one of the policy changes eBay makes results in a healthier marketplace devoid of “bad” sellers and the remaining sellers don’t have to compete with fraudulent sellers or sellers who provide poor customer service, eBay will still be the loser (no matter what creative ways they come up with to score the results). The trust is gone. Sellers don’t trust eBay to protect them from the “bad” buyers and we certainly don’t trust eBay to tell us the truth.

And, for anyone who has not walked a mile in our shoes you certainly cannot understand our frustration. Yet, despite all the years of frustration I’ve had selling on eBay I never tried selling on other online marketplaces (besides my own website) but in Feb 2008 I signed up with eBay’s largest competitor. And since I am selling there currently, I now know what I have been missing and I have my eBay exit strategy planned. I am not alone.

Personally, my eBay seller accounts have been overall winners in the new feedback scoring but that doesn’t make me happy. Let me be clear — I am not mildly dissatisfied (neutral), rather I am completely dissatisfied (negative) and no matter how eBay wants to manipulate that rating from me, they have scored a big fat zero for the Rollout of the new and improved eBay 2.0 for 2008.