Friday, May 16th, 2008
Feedback on Feedback to Feedback
All,
Thanks again for your kind words and emails. Sorry for the delay in getting this to you. As promised, I managed to spend time with Brian Burke this week and he tackled a lot of the follow-up questions that came through from the “Accountability” post written last week.
The following follow-up questions and answers are shown in no particular order. The questions, and the prior comments by Brian they refer to, are indented and shaded below. The new answers follow each shaded box.
I realize there were more questions asked but I wanted to get at least some addressed sooner rather than later. Thanks to Brian for taking the time to sit down with me again to discuss questions raised here on Ink.
Cheers,
RBH
Please re-round the circle squared by eBay President Lorrie Norrington on the eBay Announcement Board on March 20, 2008 titled “Update For Sellers”.
Norrington seems to be attempting to address the concerns of sellers who fear a neg from a non paying bidder. She attempts to mitigate the new “neg sellers only” policy by writing:
“What we have determined is that if the buyer does not specifically call out poor seller performance, item condition or transaction problems during the UPI process, eBay will remove the seller’s negative or neutral feedback — retroactively.”
This makes no sense. Sellers do not send items won in auctions before receiving payment. How can a buyer who leaves a neg be justified by claiming a problem with “item condition” for an item never sent, received nor seen? Again, sellers DO NOT send items without first receiving payment.
While Norrington’s “solution” may be boss pleasing “disruptive innovation”, it flat out makes no sense in the real world of selling on eBay.
This policy is designed to address a specific issue raised at the eCommerce Forum in January. Specifically, sellers complained that the current protections for sellers with the UPI process - the buyer must fail to respond completely - was inadequate, since all a buyer had to do was enter a single character or comment that they had no intention of paying, and any negative or neutral FB left by the buyer would remain.
Sellers shouldn’t send items prior to receiving payment. But if a buyer is complaining about the product condition in the UPI process, it’s a good indication that the buyer did pay.
Buyers who respond and respond in a manner that clearly indicates the seller was not at fault, such as “I found another one” or “my spouse is in the hospital so I can’t pay” shouldn’t be negatively impacted by a buyer’s negative Feedback.
However, if the buyer states, “I refuse to pay via Western Union” or “I just sent payment” or “I paid” (NOTE, some sellers file false claims, those caught are suspended) or “I did a charge back because you refused to send me a refund for the damaged product” would result in negative or neutral Feedback remaining.
A buyer who is referencing product condition, not receiving the product, etc. is a very good indicator that the buyer sent money.
We will continue to evaluate this policy.
We used a really simple definition when determining exactly what constituted retaliatory negative feedback. It was strictly a user who received a negative feedback and subsequently left a negative feedback.Severely flawed research error. The definition of retaliatory feedback” is based on an assumption not a fact.
With millions and millions of transactions happening we have to study behavior over time in order to identify trends and to determine whether or not a specific trend needs addressing. The fact is that 4 years ago, sellers would leave a negative after a buyer had left a negative twice as frequently than a buyer would and today it is eight times as frequently. That is a significant change in behavior and one that needed to be addressed. Again, we examined a lot of alternatives before coming to the conclusion that the feedback system needed to change. We learned that when a buyer gets a negative feedback in the eBay marketplace, they discontinue participating in the marketplace and it’s not healthy for anyone.
In January we mentioned that we’d block buyers from leaving negative or neutral Feedback for 3 days for sellers “with a track record.” Since January, we’ve made the decision to increase the wait period to 7 days and define “track record” as active PowerSellers who have been on eBay for at least 12 months.
What about NON-Powersellers? Does this mean the buyer could leave us a negative IMMEDIATELY? Or does it mean they can do it within 3 days, and only PS get the 7 day protection? This needs immediate clarification. Richard, PLEASE get a clarification on this.
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Why does the cooling off period, given it is so short a timeframe, only apply to PS? Why not to those who have been on the site for years? Why not to everyone?
Right now only PowerSellers get the 7-day protection. This has replaced the 3-day block rule introduced back in January. Suspension types and frequencies of suspensions were analyzed and it was determined that PowerSellers were the safest population of users to single out for this protection. If safety issues arise we could restrict this beyond the 12-month, PowerSeller distinction and, conversely, if we see positive results and gain confidence in the 7-day protection model, we could expand to other sellers. I don’t see this happening in the next 6 months though.
Richard, while you’re at it, can you please get an explanation as to how a waiting period adversely affects buyers anyway? Sellers have to give buyers 7 days to pay before they can file a UID. Why not give ALL sellers the same 7 day “benefit of the doubt?”
Essentially, we’re trying to balance marketplace safety with seller satisfaction. We want buyers to know immediately about a potentially bad or fraudulent buyer experience to better avoid repeat occurrences.
The way we’re going to hold buyers accountable is through private reporting from sellers; through enhancing the tools that we’ve given sellers to help protect them from buyers.What enhancements? Here’s the thing — the only thing that I’ve ever found helpful on feedback left for buyers is utilizing their feedback received when someone is slow in paying (ie, I’m not sure if they will follow through). If they have negs for non-payment, I’ll file a UPI a bit faster. If they don’t, I give them a lot more time/leeway. Will sellers have access to info on whether UPI reports have been made against buyers?
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What enhancements to which tools?
Sellers will not have direct access to info on whether UPI reports have been made against buyers. However, there is a buyer requirement tool that will allow sellers to block buyers with a UPI track record of 2 or more items. We’ve also introduced a seller reporting hub.
We’re going to take a look at what buyers are saying in the UPI console and remove it if it is arbitrary.
Who is going to be doing this? What will be the guidelines as to what is “arbitrary?”
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Will the process of reporting a buyer be reviewed by an actual person or a bot? Will we receive canned answers?
Customer support representatives will be reviewing all reports. There will be canned answers associated with general issues raised for the hundreds and hundreds of cases reported. Reports will be handled on a case by case basis and will be deemed arbitrary if there is no mention of dissatisfaction with the seller or an unwillingness to complete the transaction with the seller.
Does this new PowerSeller policy constitute a barrier to entry? And what about seasonal sellers who cannot enjoy PS benefits because they sell for a few months each year (but most definitely qualify PS, they just are not onsite long enough each year to qualify)? And what about new sellers? Do they become targets with no protection? Do you guys not want new sellers?
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Do you see a place for the small time seller on eBay in the future? I would love to stay but I am being pushed away with every calculated change and it seems many others are also. Is this what eBay is counting on?
These changes don’t have anything to do with the size of the seller. They are focused on the buying experience. With regard to DSRs and feedback, smaller sellers are actually the folks in a position to take an advantage of the new changes because they already provide a more personalized, attentive service to the individual buyer… helping ensure positive feedback after a transaction is completed.
We want all sellers to feel welcome on eBay and the new PowerSeller policy should not be seen as a barrier to entry, rather it should be seen as another incentive to sell more on eBay.
Will anything be done to ensure the 12-month period does not backfire on anyone?
There will inevitably be a small group of folks that are negatively effected by the 12-month window but again, we think that recent performance and activity is a much better indicator of what a buyer can expect to experience than a performance rating from 7-8 years ago.
A couple of months ago I received an email saying that a positive feedback had been removed because a buyer had been NARU’d after a relatively short time on Ebay.
On the Australian site my feedback now reads 99.9% for the last 12 months in spite of the fact that I have not received a neutral or neg for about 8 years, and I have been on a full 100% for about 6 or 7 years. I have never entered into mutually withdrawn feedback.
Please ask Mr Burke whether feedback that has been completely removed by Ebay is being counted as “non positive” feedback. If not, can you please ask him to review my feedback and clarify why it is calculated at 99.9% for the last 12 months on the Australian site. I am not asking for any adjustment to my feedback, only a clarification (you know, accountability) - I can supply a friends user ID with no neutrals or neg’s in the last 12 months and 4.9 dsr’s that currently rates at 99.5% if he would like to review that as well.
This is likely a data anomaly - with over 7 billion Feedback we occasionally have these come up. But since the seller is in US, I would ask that they wait until we update the US site next week. If it is still inaccurate, I can have a database engineer look into it - but I bet it’s accurate next week.
EBay is accepting the unverified opinion of buyers a fact, seller’s loose status based on the unverified feedback and DSR”s that buyers leave. Will eBay accept the reports of extortion and buyer bad behavior from sellers as fact without verifying those reports? Or will they only count against the buyer after being reviewed? A public system of accountability for sellers with no review of the facts and private backdoor accountability systems for buyers with a review of facts is not an equal and just system. So ask Brian if seller reports about buyers will be reviewed. Will sellers need to provide proof of extortion?
Sellers reports of buyers will be reviewed thoroughly. Extortion is very difficult to prove so the more proof a seller can provide, the better off we’ll all be. It will be easier to take action against buyers that have a pattern of behavior rather than a single instance of reported extortion - again because it is very difficult to prove a single instance of extortion.
In order to cut down on potential extortion situations we’re reducing the number of days someone can leave feedback from 90 to 60 days.
*How* does this cut down on potential extortion situations?
The window of time in which a buyer could resort to extortion has been shortened. For example, in the past a buyer could wait until 85 days after a transaction to practice extortion. The longer the time period; the longer the opportunity. We’ve reduced that window of opportunity considerably.
If the buyer did not pay, shouldn’t the “burden of proof” be on the buyer to report the reason why he / she did not pay?
Better yet, why not allow “private” reporting by the buyer to let eBay know that there was a good reason that they didn’t pay the seller?
What percentage of buyers actually have a valid reason for nonpayment? How about some eBay “statistics” to give us a better understanding of eBay’s desire to protect this group of eBay buyers who NEED the ability to leave negative feedback for a seller that never received payment.
We need any information regarding potential fraud to be public, and to be public fast. With regard to statistical information, Brian indicated that he would get UPI stats for me to share on the blog.
Tagged: brian+burke, buyers, detailed+seller+rationgs, dsr, ebay, ebay.com, ecommerce, feedback, Marketplace, online+marketplace, sellers
kimbersOn 05.19.2008 at 9:27 am Said:
As soon as I submitted my last post, the phone rang. It was my brother who called only to gloat that his feedback went up and is now 100% and will never go down.
A happy buyer.
Good luck to all.
CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 05.19.2008 at 9:28 am Said:
“Crunchy - I’m really not interested in hearing ebay’s theory of why buyers left ebay. “
Okay, but that is what the changes are based on. If one wishes to change and/or alters eBay’s take on situation, then I would think the most logical course of action would be to analyze why they have come to the conclusions they have, in order to show how those methods and hence resulting conclusions are wrong. If posters simply say “this will happen” or “I fear this will happen”, that isn’t going to change eBay’s mind. However, showing the faults in logic may.
I would also think that those who continue to sell on eBay would most definitely be concerned with the consequences of not conforming to the new enviroment. Especially since not conforming will lead to them receiving more neutral and negative feedback will ultimately result in restrictions and suspensions.
I agree that sellers leaving feedback first should be the least of eBay’s worries, but obviously it isn’t. So I not sure that just ignoring the consequences is really the best course of action for any seller on eBay, since doing so could lead to the loss of that sellers account on eBay.
“I will get a banner saying it is too early to leave feedback your item will be delivered between this time and this time.”
Patricia, that is great to know. Thank you for writing that! I sell on Amazon, but I never knew that they had such a protection in place for sellers. Caulk it up to another reason why I prefer to sell there. 
CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 05.19.2008 at 9:29 am Said:
“I believe eBay is playing chicken with sellers right now. They are counting on their history of getting their way, but this time for people such as yourself,a basic cost benefit analysis (so basic it doesn’t even need to be put to paper) is telling these sellers that it simply isn’t worth it to do business within eBay anymore.”
Mechelle, I totally agree. I have in fact been able to help a few former eBay sellers find successful selling homes elsewhere. However, there have been a few that have not had success elsewhere. Also, there will always be optimistic people who feel that they can make it work, and in fact a lot of them do. There are several regular posters on eBay’s SC forum who are still selling on eBay without any negative effects since the changes have happened, but there are also several who have experienced nothing but negative effects since the changes took effect. I think a lot of it has to do with what a person sells and what type of customer base those particular products attract.
“started clicking into the sellers’ IDs and was stunned even further to see how many who were apparently still registered, but were absent none-the-less”
while I’m currently not listing on eBay, I have not closed my selling account either. I’m waiting to see how everything is going to play out. If eBay improves, either with these changes or by revoking them, I will happily come back to selling on eBay. I will also still have my selling account with its 100% feedback still intact.
“is eBay looking to grow or start over? If all the currant veteran sellers leave they also take with them the knowledge they have acquired over their history on eBay. So, how are the replacement sellers going to start where those who left took a decade to develop and master?”
Yes, I believe eBay is planning to start over, in a sense. They stated that the eBay in 2 or 3 years from now will not resemble, in any way, the eBay of today. I believe the replacement sellers that eBay is planning to attract with this new enviroment are large, professional sellers, such as Buy. These business are already well established, so they will have not problem offering the type of customer service eBay is now expecting of sellers. I believe the successful transition of these businesses will not miss a beat.
So, I do not believe eBay is really playing chicken with sellers. I think they are reinventing their marketplace to appeal to a certain type of sellers and buyer - both of which are nothing like those that currently exist on the site. So it is not surprise that the current sellers are leaving. That is exactly what eBay wants. Why would they want to keep sellers who do not fit into their vision of what they want eBay to become?
Patricia1On 05.19.2008 at 9:41 am Said:
Crunchy - like you I have not given up my ebay account. I keep a few listings there - mainly to keep a presence and to use the sales I make to attract the buyers to my website. I’m not one for burning bridges. Also, I have no idea where the arts categories would be in ebay’s master plan - I think they will keep them because they are unique. BUT any seller who is not out and about supporting other online sites is only fooling themselves. I think ebay’s drastic makeover should be a hard learned lesson to us all never to depend on one site again. I believe the sellers are learning that and weaning themselves off total dependency on ebay.
urbankatOn 05.19.2008 at 9:42 am Said:
Brenda thank you.
Sandi and Mechelle, Last I was warned in a very chilish manner that my “time is coming to an end” it was from one of the people I believe has control over pulling posts and threads, well I just tried to go the the AC and I received this message Error you are not allowed to view or go to this category” I tried several times so again it is either Favoritism - Nepotism - non-employees are the so called “moderation team” ot an Employee is giving out information which also falls under Favoritism!
I looked under another ID and of course the sellers are running amok, not a big surprise, somone said they idiots well small closed minds never grow, and that is exactly what we have here.
Also what is this nonsense about 100% score because of the THEIVES who theft me RETALITORY FB my score went from 97.4% to 88.4% so you brillant sellers who think the buyers are gaining some undeserved glory OPEN YOUR EYES.
I have many I was looking at to bid on and “buy it now” Ebay I AM DONE, YOU AND YOUR THEIVING SMALL MINDED Sellers who ARE ALLOWED TO leave Retalitory FB and these people may be fooled about what is happening in the AC but I am not, YOU WILL NEVER NOr PAYPAL REceive another Dime from me.
LisaOn 05.19.2008 at 9:45 am Said:
@Crunchy-
You’ve nailed it. I think we all know that’s what they’re doing, but there’s been an underlying sense of denial. Like Ebay’s going to change their evil ways and go back to playing nice. Today, when the feedback changed, the truth really hit me, like being punched in the gut. We know, they know, it’s an unfair policy. So what? Boycotts don’t work; I don’t believe a mass exodus will really occur. But if it does, I think they’ll weather the hit.
I have over 4000 + feedback but I realize I’m not welcome anymore. I’ve got another week to go with my auctions, then I’m signing off. I’ll keep my ID intact for now and watch and wait and maybe a leader will emerge in the flea market auction field.
But the way Ebay has gone about changing their site is appalling. The negative feedback on Ebay is being heard across the world. It will certainly be interesting to see what this site looks like in 2 months, never mind 2 years.
I feel so much better now that I’ve given up all hope.
CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 05.19.2008 at 9:59 am Said:
Urbankat, one thing to keep in mind with reading the forums is that is consists of a very small percentage of the buyers and sellers on eBay. Most of those who post there are regular, long-time users, most of which do not even sell on the site anymore, since the changes were announced. I sold on eBay for 2 years before I even first visited or posted on their forum. A lot of serious sellers are simply too busy to even bother with the time necessary to post over and over on those forums, so you are not really getting an accurate view of the entire eBay seller enviroment by listening to the small percentage that post there.
Also, People usually go there only when they have a problem or question, so it should be no surprised that you will received skewed results. Furthermore, a lot of the regular posters have been doing so for years. Over that time they have experienced so many negative situations, that have become bitter and are unable to give the benefit of the doubt to a lot of other users.
If you plan to continue using the forums, my advice to you is to not take anything said there personally. Listen to the good, sound advice given, and disregard the other basis and negative ones as exactly that. Over time you will learn which posters can be trusted, which one are there simply there to push their particular agenda, which are there to stir the pot, and which one have formed a group of like-minded posters who simply defend what each other says, regardless of accuracy or validity.
AmberOn 05.19.2008 at 9:59 am Said:
“These business are already well established, so they will have not problem offering the type of customer service eBay is now expecting of sellers.”
My problem with this logic, Crunchy, is that many of those larger retailers have WORSE customer service than the majority of sellers here. Impersonal, DAYS before you get a response, outrageous shipping…
I don’t think ebay will make it as a retail site. Look at Buy’s STR. People don’t come to ebay to buy new stuff at full retail price. In 2-3 years, if these changes occur as we all suspect they’re going to, there will be no reason to come to ebay at all. Nothing unique, no unique site identity. Those buyers already get their retail fix at Amazon. Ebay has NO hope of luring them back.
urbankatOn 05.19.2008 at 10:08 am Said:
I have to say I will be doing from good old fashioned regular stores or I will buy from Overstock.com the shipping is cheap and I have NEVER had a problem with anything I have bought. There are still scads of antique stores in my area.
Ebay and So called “moderation Team” who give out peoples personal information, allow them to make Threats, and then block me from the parts of the site, what a poor/bad/AWFUL and Scarry buying experience I have had. It is so bad I will not be stupid enough to keep giving you my hard earned money so you can keep abusing me and others.
When your buyers start jumping ship tahts when sales really drop, It is amazing how so many thousands of people can think the same small way, it really is the blind leading the blind, one bolts and runs right off the cliff and all the others follow, pride and arrogance were the cause of the fall of man and we see this in the daily news but does anyone ever get a clue?
CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 05.19.2008 at 10:11 am Said:
Urbankat, you wrote “YOU AND YOUR THEIVING SMALL MINDED Sellers who ARE ALLOWED TO leave Retalitory FB and these”.
Under the recent changes, sellers can no longer leave negative feedback for buyers.
Also, if you plan to continue posting on the eBay forums, I suggest you create an ID just for posting. Do not use your selling id or buying id. Of course, you’ll be limited to 10 posts a day, but I think it is worth the protection.
I use my Crunchy id on both the eBay forums and here, but that is not the ID that I sell or buy on. I created this ID for the exact situation that you are experiencing there right now.
ShirleyOn 05.19.2008 at 10:18 am Said:
“So, I do not believe eBay is really playing chicken with sellers. I think they are reinventing their marketplace to appeal to a certain type of sellers and buyer - both of which are nothing like those that currently exist on the site. So it is not surprise that the current sellers are leaving. That is exactly what eBay wants. Why would they want to keep sellers who do not fit into their vision of what they want eBay to become?”
But Ebay did have a good gig going on? Didn’t They??
Crunchy-Do you think Ebay will be successful transitioning into a more professional site, like you described?
CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 05.19.2008 at 10:35 am Said:
Lisa, I understand your frustration. Yet simply by posting here and keeping your selling id active, you have demonstrated that you have not given up all hope - which is a good thing!
One way or another eBay is going to change. The real questions are: into what, will it be successful, and which sellers will still be able to sell successfully there?
I continue to hope that posting counterpoints to eBay’s “logic” will eventually make a difference. If anything, posting here as lead to actual confirmation by eBay on several issues which only had speculation up until now. It will indeed be interesting to see what eBay evolves into.
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Amber, I agree that the larger corporations may not be able to provide the personal service small sellers can. Still they have enough volume to buffer any of the negative feedback customers leave for them. Right now Buy has 4.8s, which is actually better than a lot of current sellers on eBay, especially when it comes to the Shipping & Handling star.
I also agree that right now people do not come to eBay for new items, and that is exactly what eBay is trying to change. Ebay wants people to come to eBay for new items, because they feel that is were most of the money and traffic is to be made. Whether they succeed or not remains to be seen, but it is quite clear that is their objective.
The only silver lining I see in all this is that perhaps large retailers, which offer impersonal service, may finally help to lower the unrealistic expectations buyers currently have for sellers. Perhaps it will also lower eBay’s unrealistic expectation of sellers too. It may be best that large retail corporations institute this change, since they will have the volume, and special deals to whether the buyer backlash.
As to buyers getting their retail fix at Amazon, well I find that buyers go were the merchandise is. If eBay is able to reinvent its site, then sellers will bring their new merchandise back, and the buyers will follow. As a seller I am always looking for multiple venues to successfully sell my items on.
urbankatOn 05.19.2008 at 10:39 am Said:
Crunchy, This is new FB in the past 2 weeks and over the weekend, my case was proven and won and they left Retalitory FB.
I have a posting ID BUT you can only create and post within that thread you cannot post to other threads until you have 10 FB.
And after all the things that I mentioned which are true and can be proven as I have copied every thread that they deleted, I Will NOT give Ebay another dime, they have Never conatcted me yet I have emailed countless times as this as been on going for more than 3 weeks
JJHOn 05.19.2008 at 10:58 am Said:
It appears they just did the feedback rollup from 1998 on me. My feedback just changed from 3020 to 3224.
How about anyone else?
AmberOn 05.19.2008 at 11:00 am Said:
“I find that buyers go were the merchandise is.”
Cruncy, I’d offer a slight change to that.
Buyers go where the merchandise is if they consider the site reputable.
Ebay has a reputation problem. Which is, I know, part of the “theory” behind these changes.
And as for Buy and others being the examples of focusing on the NEW, they need to remember that price is the most powerful part of a buyer’s decision. No one is going to buy something here that they can get cheaper, and with less hassle, just about anywhere else.
I just fundamentally disagree with the direction ebay is going. I don’t think it’s going to be successful. NEW items are not what sells here. Sure, they have higher ASPs, but the high cost of doing business here means that the prices are better elsewhere. Sellers make more profit elsewhere.
Ebay has always traded on its brand recognition–and that’s what they are undermining.
It just seems short sighted and unrealistic. Just as there isn’t really a dearth of new items on the site , there isn’t really a place in the ecommerce climate for another generic online mall.
And that opinion is not drawn from my angst as a soon-to-be trampled small seller. That’s my opinion drawn from my experience as a buyer. The ebay buyers I’ve talked to elsewhere feel the same.
If it’s not unique, vintage, used, cheaper or otherwise rare, they will not come to ebay for it.
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