Friday, May 16th, 2008
Feedback on Feedback to Feedback
All,
Thanks again for your kind words and emails. Sorry for the delay in getting this to you. As promised, I managed to spend time with Brian Burke this week and he tackled a lot of the follow-up questions that came through from the “Accountability” post written last week.
The following follow-up questions and answers are shown in no particular order. The questions, and the prior comments by Brian they refer to, are indented and shaded below. The new answers follow each shaded box.
I realize there were more questions asked but I wanted to get at least some addressed sooner rather than later. Thanks to Brian for taking the time to sit down with me again to discuss questions raised here on Ink.
Cheers,
RBH
Please re-round the circle squared by eBay President Lorrie Norrington on the eBay Announcement Board on March 20, 2008 titled “Update For Sellers”.
Norrington seems to be attempting to address the concerns of sellers who fear a neg from a non paying bidder. She attempts to mitigate the new “neg sellers only” policy by writing:
“What we have determined is that if the buyer does not specifically call out poor seller performance, item condition or transaction problems during the UPI process, eBay will remove the seller’s negative or neutral feedback — retroactively.”
This makes no sense. Sellers do not send items won in auctions before receiving payment. How can a buyer who leaves a neg be justified by claiming a problem with “item condition” for an item never sent, received nor seen? Again, sellers DO NOT send items without first receiving payment.
While Norrington’s “solution” may be boss pleasing “disruptive innovation”, it flat out makes no sense in the real world of selling on eBay.
This policy is designed to address a specific issue raised at the eCommerce Forum in January. Specifically, sellers complained that the current protections for sellers with the UPI process - the buyer must fail to respond completely - was inadequate, since all a buyer had to do was enter a single character or comment that they had no intention of paying, and any negative or neutral FB left by the buyer would remain.
Sellers shouldn’t send items prior to receiving payment. But if a buyer is complaining about the product condition in the UPI process, it’s a good indication that the buyer did pay.
Buyers who respond and respond in a manner that clearly indicates the seller was not at fault, such as “I found another one” or “my spouse is in the hospital so I can’t pay” shouldn’t be negatively impacted by a buyer’s negative Feedback.
However, if the buyer states, “I refuse to pay via Western Union” or “I just sent payment” or “I paid” (NOTE, some sellers file false claims, those caught are suspended) or “I did a charge back because you refused to send me a refund for the damaged product” would result in negative or neutral Feedback remaining.
A buyer who is referencing product condition, not receiving the product, etc. is a very good indicator that the buyer sent money.
We will continue to evaluate this policy.
We used a really simple definition when determining exactly what constituted retaliatory negative feedback. It was strictly a user who received a negative feedback and subsequently left a negative feedback.Severely flawed research error. The definition of retaliatory feedback” is based on an assumption not a fact.
With millions and millions of transactions happening we have to study behavior over time in order to identify trends and to determine whether or not a specific trend needs addressing. The fact is that 4 years ago, sellers would leave a negative after a buyer had left a negative twice as frequently than a buyer would and today it is eight times as frequently. That is a significant change in behavior and one that needed to be addressed. Again, we examined a lot of alternatives before coming to the conclusion that the feedback system needed to change. We learned that when a buyer gets a negative feedback in the eBay marketplace, they discontinue participating in the marketplace and it’s not healthy for anyone.
In January we mentioned that we’d block buyers from leaving negative or neutral Feedback for 3 days for sellers “with a track record.” Since January, we’ve made the decision to increase the wait period to 7 days and define “track record” as active PowerSellers who have been on eBay for at least 12 months.
What about NON-Powersellers? Does this mean the buyer could leave us a negative IMMEDIATELY? Or does it mean they can do it within 3 days, and only PS get the 7 day protection? This needs immediate clarification. Richard, PLEASE get a clarification on this.
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Why does the cooling off period, given it is so short a timeframe, only apply to PS? Why not to those who have been on the site for years? Why not to everyone?
Right now only PowerSellers get the 7-day protection. This has replaced the 3-day block rule introduced back in January. Suspension types and frequencies of suspensions were analyzed and it was determined that PowerSellers were the safest population of users to single out for this protection. If safety issues arise we could restrict this beyond the 12-month, PowerSeller distinction and, conversely, if we see positive results and gain confidence in the 7-day protection model, we could expand to other sellers. I don’t see this happening in the next 6 months though.
Richard, while you’re at it, can you please get an explanation as to how a waiting period adversely affects buyers anyway? Sellers have to give buyers 7 days to pay before they can file a UID. Why not give ALL sellers the same 7 day “benefit of the doubt?”
Essentially, we’re trying to balance marketplace safety with seller satisfaction. We want buyers to know immediately about a potentially bad or fraudulent buyer experience to better avoid repeat occurrences.
The way we’re going to hold buyers accountable is through private reporting from sellers; through enhancing the tools that we’ve given sellers to help protect them from buyers.What enhancements? Here’s the thing — the only thing that I’ve ever found helpful on feedback left for buyers is utilizing their feedback received when someone is slow in paying (ie, I’m not sure if they will follow through). If they have negs for non-payment, I’ll file a UPI a bit faster. If they don’t, I give them a lot more time/leeway. Will sellers have access to info on whether UPI reports have been made against buyers?
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What enhancements to which tools?
Sellers will not have direct access to info on whether UPI reports have been made against buyers. However, there is a buyer requirement tool that will allow sellers to block buyers with a UPI track record of 2 or more items. We’ve also introduced a seller reporting hub.
We’re going to take a look at what buyers are saying in the UPI console and remove it if it is arbitrary.
Who is going to be doing this? What will be the guidelines as to what is “arbitrary?”
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Will the process of reporting a buyer be reviewed by an actual person or a bot? Will we receive canned answers?
Customer support representatives will be reviewing all reports. There will be canned answers associated with general issues raised for the hundreds and hundreds of cases reported. Reports will be handled on a case by case basis and will be deemed arbitrary if there is no mention of dissatisfaction with the seller or an unwillingness to complete the transaction with the seller.
Does this new PowerSeller policy constitute a barrier to entry? And what about seasonal sellers who cannot enjoy PS benefits because they sell for a few months each year (but most definitely qualify PS, they just are not onsite long enough each year to qualify)? And what about new sellers? Do they become targets with no protection? Do you guys not want new sellers?
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Do you see a place for the small time seller on eBay in the future? I would love to stay but I am being pushed away with every calculated change and it seems many others are also. Is this what eBay is counting on?
These changes don’t have anything to do with the size of the seller. They are focused on the buying experience. With regard to DSRs and feedback, smaller sellers are actually the folks in a position to take an advantage of the new changes because they already provide a more personalized, attentive service to the individual buyer… helping ensure positive feedback after a transaction is completed.
We want all sellers to feel welcome on eBay and the new PowerSeller policy should not be seen as a barrier to entry, rather it should be seen as another incentive to sell more on eBay.
Will anything be done to ensure the 12-month period does not backfire on anyone?
There will inevitably be a small group of folks that are negatively effected by the 12-month window but again, we think that recent performance and activity is a much better indicator of what a buyer can expect to experience than a performance rating from 7-8 years ago.
A couple of months ago I received an email saying that a positive feedback had been removed because a buyer had been NARU’d after a relatively short time on Ebay.
On the Australian site my feedback now reads 99.9% for the last 12 months in spite of the fact that I have not received a neutral or neg for about 8 years, and I have been on a full 100% for about 6 or 7 years. I have never entered into mutually withdrawn feedback.
Please ask Mr Burke whether feedback that has been completely removed by Ebay is being counted as “non positive” feedback. If not, can you please ask him to review my feedback and clarify why it is calculated at 99.9% for the last 12 months on the Australian site. I am not asking for any adjustment to my feedback, only a clarification (you know, accountability) - I can supply a friends user ID with no neutrals or neg’s in the last 12 months and 4.9 dsr’s that currently rates at 99.5% if he would like to review that as well.
This is likely a data anomaly - with over 7 billion Feedback we occasionally have these come up. But since the seller is in US, I would ask that they wait until we update the US site next week. If it is still inaccurate, I can have a database engineer look into it - but I bet it’s accurate next week.
EBay is accepting the unverified opinion of buyers a fact, seller’s loose status based on the unverified feedback and DSR”s that buyers leave. Will eBay accept the reports of extortion and buyer bad behavior from sellers as fact without verifying those reports? Or will they only count against the buyer after being reviewed? A public system of accountability for sellers with no review of the facts and private backdoor accountability systems for buyers with a review of facts is not an equal and just system. So ask Brian if seller reports about buyers will be reviewed. Will sellers need to provide proof of extortion?
Sellers reports of buyers will be reviewed thoroughly. Extortion is very difficult to prove so the more proof a seller can provide, the better off we’ll all be. It will be easier to take action against buyers that have a pattern of behavior rather than a single instance of reported extortion - again because it is very difficult to prove a single instance of extortion.
In order to cut down on potential extortion situations we’re reducing the number of days someone can leave feedback from 90 to 60 days.
*How* does this cut down on potential extortion situations?
The window of time in which a buyer could resort to extortion has been shortened. For example, in the past a buyer could wait until 85 days after a transaction to practice extortion. The longer the time period; the longer the opportunity. We’ve reduced that window of opportunity considerably.
If the buyer did not pay, shouldn’t the “burden of proof” be on the buyer to report the reason why he / she did not pay?
Better yet, why not allow “private” reporting by the buyer to let eBay know that there was a good reason that they didn’t pay the seller?
What percentage of buyers actually have a valid reason for nonpayment? How about some eBay “statistics” to give us a better understanding of eBay’s desire to protect this group of eBay buyers who NEED the ability to leave negative feedback for a seller that never received payment.
We need any information regarding potential fraud to be public, and to be public fast. With regard to statistical information, Brian indicated that he would get UPI stats for me to share on the blog.
Tagged: brian+burke, buyers, detailed+seller+rationgs, dsr, ebay, ebay.com, ecommerce, feedback, Marketplace, online+marketplace, sellers
Patricia1On 05.18.2008 at 2:53 pm Said:
Buyers who DO care about feedback will soon come to the same conclusion. They’re not air heads - I have faith that they’ll see right thru this and right thru ebay 
Have faith!
MechelleOn 05.18.2008 at 3:32 pm Said:
I agree with Patricia- a lot of buyers do value their feedback because it differentiates them from the crappy buyers. It won’t take long before they see positive feedback with negative remarks and resent the fact that some criminal is beaming with a 100% feedback the same as they are. of course feedback ratings are about ego and that is precisely why this will frustrate maybe even infuriate a lot of buyers. People want recognition of their qualities and behavior that desire isn’t going to change now. The only thing changing is they will no longer have recognition when they fully deserve it.
I have no intention of leaving feedback immediately following payment. I used to do that until I encountered a criminal who attempted to extort me- the B**** deserved a negative and to be tossed off eBay (of course that didn’t happen eBay loves the criminals)instead she gets to shop boasting that positive from me the same as all my other customers who deserve their positive. I may not be able to give someone a neutral or negative, but I sure don’t have to help them build up their feedback count. I feel that I would be thoroughly disrespecting my customers by degrading their character to pump up some deviants feedback with a positive they do not deserve.
horsemamaOn 05.18.2008 at 3:33 pm Said:
It’s going to be real ugly in about three days, when ALL sellers realize what has happened. So many people still don’t know about the changes.
I work the Answer Center and it’s already getting ugly and sad there, with people gleefully planning to neg away after May 19. The only thing that held some people in check was the possibility of a return negative.
There literally have been people coming to the AC to ask if they should neg a seller because “I won the auction Friday and paid right away, and now it’s Tuesday and I still don’t have my item.” And I’m dead serious, we actually had a post like that about a week ago. They think this is Star Trek, and the seller should be able to “beam” the item to them.
Very few people use the Answer Center. Multiply that by all the people who are of a mind to give a neg that quickly who DON’T come to the AC and get reeled in by more experienced members.
It’s going to get very ugly, very quickly.
Way to go, eBay.
LisaOn 05.18.2008 at 3:56 pm Said:
I have this feeling in my gut sellers (good & bad) are going to take a beating. It’s like were being crucified and without a jury. Ebay’s true intent is just to get us off so that they can turn it into some glowing big seller mall. They’ve set up impossible standards for sellers to achieve. Does anyone really believe Buy.Com has that high of stars? I hope Ebay has some sort of judgement day in the end. You put a lot of years of hard work in and some heartless guy comes in and decides to decimate the whole site. People mean nothing to him. He worships the almighty buck. I guess feel sorry for him. How happy can he really be? He must see the outpouring of fear sellers are relaying in all the different posts. And so passionately. People love Ebay.
The eve of the end. So long Ebay…
spinach.chinOn 05.18.2008 at 4:08 pm Said:
Patricia, you posted this (regarding unjustified negs)…
They’ve been bragging about doing just that in the US on ebay’s own Feedback Discussion Board….if they’re reading it they certainly aren’t comprehending it or else they just do not care! I’m letting my few listings just run out then will sit back and watch.
and then this…
Buyers who DO care about feedback will soon come to the same conclusion. They’re not air heads - I have faith that they’ll see right thru this and right thru ebay Have faith!
So which is it? Will buyers see through the fb BS, or will they neg freely, knowing that there will be no consequences? You seem to be arguing both sides of the issue…
Also…
Yeah…and I bet you a phoney Picasso that that is just more Ebay-speak. LOL
You can bet that eBay fully expected to lose a fair percentage of it’s seller base, small sellers in particular. A little research reveals that this is the case. Anyone who believes that eBay is somehow devastated by the outflux of sellers is simply deluding themselves.
PinkieOn 05.18.2008 at 4:34 pm Said:
Another problem that many of us have with the NEW feedback system is that eBay is retroactively assigning a negative nuance to neutral feedback. It would be fine to assign a negative impact from this point forard of neutral feedback; that would be honest. But what eBay is in fact doing is changing the rules after the game was already being played, and that is SO not cool. Many folks in the past have left neutral and meant just that-neither positive nor negative, thus the term NEUTRAL. But this is as if the football game had already started and at half time, the ref’s announced that they were changing the scoring system, and now touchdowns would count as 15 points. There is no way that the players would accept this, and why should they? It is morally and ethically wrong-period.
SandiOn 05.18.2008 at 5:07 pm Said:
Buyers who DO care about feedback will soon come to the same conclusion. They’re not air heads - I have faith that they’ll see right thru this and right thru ebay Have faith!
I was a buyer and seller, in reality I purchased more than I sold. I have a buyer ID that I typically use when buying - I take the feedback changes as an insult to my intelligence as a buyer.
Ebay is in essence saying buyers are babies, who have no reading comprehension skills and can not handle basic math.
Let’s look at the issues ebay is pounding on -
shipping: I look for the shipping and handling charge before bidding, if it is not listed I more often than not move on to another listing. If it is something I REALLY want, I email seller and ask what shipping would be BEFORE bidding/
No response, no bid. If they respond I do a little basic math and determine if shipping is reasonable and what my total cost would be. If I agree with the terms, I bid - I am the one (as all buyers) who makes the adult, educated decision afterall. No one is forcing my fingers to click anything.
Well I think excessive shipping is horrible and I avoid sellers who do that no matter what - I think buyers who bid have no one else to blame but themselves. I mean, come on, it is simple adding the two numbers.
Retalitory - If I buy something at Macy’s and am unhappy, I take it back and voice my unhappiness and give them the opportunity to fix it before bad mouthing them. ebay sellers should have the same right. If I simply feel a seller a neg and never communicate, I deserve a negative back.
I would always ask myself “Was this bad enough to get a negative, if the answer is yes, I leave negative.
Reality check, had ebay spent 800 bucks they could have gotten a comprehensive report on consumer behavioral trends and discovered buyers have changed in the last 5 years, fradulent chargebacks are at an all time high (to the point that card issurers are looking into restricting chargebacks), consumers are more demaning, wanting more for less, and in general more impatient. Reading comprehension is at an all time low.
A study due in 2005 by Hallmark outlined the blog atomsphere would change the consumer behavior in a not positive way. A lot of influences changed the buyer, especially the ebay buyer.
There are direct changed behaviors that had a significant influence on the numbers they opted to not research.
Item not as described: Sellers get blamed when buyers do not read - a have seen post after post on the answer center when the buyer did not read the listing and got EXACTLY what the listing stated they would, but not what they THOUGHT they were getting. One of my favorites was, “Teapot was smaller than pictured, lid is not tight”. Well first, most teapot lids are not tiht to allow steam - but the photo was of the teapot alone, nothing else so size could not be compared, but actual dimensions were in the listing,
The photo was not misleading and all the buyer had to do was read the first 2 sentences and she would have known actual dimensions - yet the seller got a neg because the buyer lacked reading skills.
We once had a buyer who only purchased DVDs on ebay, a seller’s feedback was based on if he enjoyed the movie. If he did not enjoy the movie, the seller got a neg - He was collecting so called “retalitory” negatives.
He left one seller a neg with the comment “Not as funny as the previews made it look”. The seller gave a neg back and said “We did not write, direct or act in movie, simply sold it” Should be mentioned the buyer left feedback 7 days after the auction ended - for media mail, he got the item in great time.
Not all buyers are sane and rationale.
Sorry, I have reading skills and do not especially like being lumped in with buyers who do not.
Ebay is now making my 100% buyer feedback meaningless. And they are doing so without even asking.
Oh, my one bad buying experience was from one of those over 12 months powersellers that ebay loves referring to has having a proven track record. I ended up filing a dispute with paypal and ghetting a refund since my item was not shipped.
Patricia1On 05.18.2008 at 5:16 pm Said:
@ spinach - yes - there ARE buyers on the feedback board bragging they’re going to have a field day negging sellers. (I hear they’re already doing that in the UK?) They’ve been reported but are still around. That does NOT mean ALL buyers - if you believed that out of what I said then I apologize for not making my posts clearer. My buyers, in particular, are angry that the feedback they’ve been so proud of will mean nothing. I’m sure that’s all pretty easy to understand. I have read the same thing posted by other buyers on the discussion boards. So, in effect, its both - there are bad buyers who don’t care and there are good buyers who take pride in their records just the same as their are good and bad sellers.
You know…I would have thought they factored in the loss of sellers due to all the changes, but now I’m not so sure. I have a feeling they thought this would all blow over by now and everything would be as it was. They really do believe they are the only online site that has the power to draw in the buyers. Yet, I don’t believe they fully expected to see so many sellers so angry and ready to pack up and leave. I’ve been to places like powersellersunite where they show charts of listings on other auction sites. Just eyeballing those listings I come to easily over 7 million listings on other sites - all lost business for ebay ….and growing almost daily! So, yeah - I bet a phoney Picasso that was mostly smoke, mirrors and ebay-speak! I don’t believe for one minute they’d get rid of a seller simply because he doesn’t leave feedback or doesn’t leave it first. Bottom line is they don’t want all sellers to mass exodus off the site - they want us gone at their leisure so they can usher in the big sellers to take our place with the least drop in revenue for them.
If they did factor in the loss of sellers to the extent that it is - then why try to raise listings by gimmicks such as lower fee days, etc.? No…I’m inclined they didn’t realize it would be this hot and heavy and ONLY BEGINNING. Wait! till these small sellers feel the quirky new policy changes directly! I hope ebay has good heavy duty earplugs ready.
I hope I have answered your questions.
urbankatOn 05.18.2008 at 5:21 pm Said:
I am a buer who has had 4 “Not As Described ” this month alone! I had 3 last month!
These sellers are having a fit and verbally assaulting many buyers in at 2 forums due to the new changes. Buyers do NOT want fake positives BUT they Do Want to be treated with Respect and in the forums and when a case is proven in their Favor it should be Ebay’s job to Mathat ANY and ALL Retalitory FB is Completely Removed not just the symbol.
I have posted the original founders thoughts on FB in the AC, it has been met with RUDE NASTY HATEFULL Comments and Links, threads have been removed because these childish people are actually having fits over this FB issue.
If you want to make buyers happy then TRULy Protect them. If you want to make sellers happy when a case is proven in their favor allow them to leave appropriate FB, especially when they are NP bidders, and do not allow Retalitory FB.
ALL my Neg’s are and were the sellers fault I can prove it, yet they ALL have left RETalitory FB, Even today, AND I have 2 where they “swore” YET Ebay Has NOT REMOVED IT!
Back to the boards, if you do not stop the Buyer BASHING and start to FAIRLY Monitor those boards this ALSO WILL Drive Buyers AWAY.
Patricia1On 05.18.2008 at 5:27 pm Said:
Thank you Sandi for that post - I rest my case on buyers. I feel for them because up until now they have also been very proud of their feedback. I know when I get a new buyer the first thing I do is check their feedback. I am very comfortable dealing with those with some feedback at 100 percent because I know they’re proud of their records just as I am of mine. All that will end tomorrow…why? Our host is going for quantity - not quality anymore! That’s the flat out answer to all of it and the reason why powersellers have all of a sudden become “trustworthy”.
Also in total agreement on shipping. Shipping should never be an issue. I’ve been buying off ebay for 10 years and never once gouged on shipping because if I felt it was too high I didn’t bid. If it wasn’t listed, I asked the seller and got a good response and bid or a bad response and didn’t bid. Nobody had to hold my hand!
Funny, the only people who really did gouge me on shipping in 10 years was Ebay’s own store!!!! I wanted that keychain so I paid the exhorbitant 5.00 shipping on a 6.00 item and then getting it with a .53 cent stamp on it! I wanted it mostly so I can write about it as much and as often as I please! The 53 cent stamp made it even better! It was well worth the gouging! LOL
urbankatOn 05.18.2008 at 5:28 pm Said:
WHY are you putting up these whining thoughts, They are doing this on every single board Buyers have no safe haven, no place they can go and be heard without seeing these whining yet they are being attacked in the forums, many have tried to stay calm and bring peace but sellers DO NOT LISTEN EVER.
What is the value of these thoughts besides to complain, People are ASKING for HELP, Ebay will you let every board become a sport for and by the sellers only.
LisaOn 05.18.2008 at 5:34 pm Said:
@Patricia
Have you checked out Etsy? They have original art and a lot of it. It’s a nice looking, clean site. I might give it a try for vintage clothing.
Good posts, you guys. I feel kind of pathetic that I can’t get over Ebay even though I know Ebay’s over me, but still taking my money. It’s just so crummy. I hope at some point the press picks up that point-how they treated the long timers who made Ebay so successful in the first place.
urbankatOn 05.18.2008 at 5:48 pm Said:
Lisa, IF there were NO buyers neither YOU OR Ebay would have Ever been a success
urbankatOn 05.18.2008 at 5:52 pm Said:
Patricia1, Thank you for being FAIR and realizing that All Buyers are not bad. So many are asking for help but most of the sellers are taking their Anger out on them on the boards
MechelleOn 05.18.2008 at 6:05 pm Said:
@spinach.chin
Patricia is NOT arguing both sides she specifically highlighted “Buyers that DO care about their feedback”- this doesn’t negate her argument, which is in fact reality and can easily be read on the boards, there are some buyers who are itching to hit the negative and they speak of it with demented glee. These are the buyers eBay is protecting- these are the buyers who should be tossed from eBay.
There are some very odd perspectives coming from buyers on the feedback board- they have wholeheartedly bought into eBay’s delusion that they are eBay’s customers and claim it is they who pay the fees. There is a very disturbing atmosphere developing in the community. eBay’s changes have effectively created conflict between Buyers and Sellers & sellers and Powersellers. The atmosphere is seething with hostility and will surely burst over the next couple months (or sooner) resulting in a very negative fall out of eBay’s thoughtless (I mean this in a literal sense not emotional) plan.
You said in an earlier post that (eBay may be heartless, but they are not stupid) If your contention of their manipulation of the feedback is in an effort to resemble Amazon’s feedback ratings - then you’re wrong they are stupid. eBay is not Amazon (nor do I believe they are attempting to be) eBay members may have a feedback system 0-100%, but in reality we measure feedback in the 99-100% range (and so does eBay and PayPal, which is why the PayPal coverage is significantly reduced at 98% ratings) for the eBay community to suddenly find themselves having to shop from 98, 97, 96, 95% feedback we are going to witness/experience the reaction that will be culture shock creating a very negative perception among eBay members and I guarantee there will be a substantial decrease in purchases. So, if your argument is correct than it is just another example of eBay having no clue about the culture of its marketplace and totally missed the mark in understanding the audience- the eBay community, and will pay dearly for their ignorance.
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