Friday, May 16th, 2008
Feedback on Feedback to Feedback
All,
Thanks again for your kind words and emails. Sorry for the delay in getting this to you. As promised, I managed to spend time with Brian Burke this week and he tackled a lot of the follow-up questions that came through from the “Accountability” post written last week.
The following follow-up questions and answers are shown in no particular order. The questions, and the prior comments by Brian they refer to, are indented and shaded below. The new answers follow each shaded box.
I realize there were more questions asked but I wanted to get at least some addressed sooner rather than later. Thanks to Brian for taking the time to sit down with me again to discuss questions raised here on Ink.
Cheers,
RBH
Please re-round the circle squared by eBay President Lorrie Norrington on the eBay Announcement Board on March 20, 2008 titled “Update For Sellers”.
Norrington seems to be attempting to address the concerns of sellers who fear a neg from a non paying bidder. She attempts to mitigate the new “neg sellers only” policy by writing:
“What we have determined is that if the buyer does not specifically call out poor seller performance, item condition or transaction problems during the UPI process, eBay will remove the seller’s negative or neutral feedback — retroactively.”
This makes no sense. Sellers do not send items won in auctions before receiving payment. How can a buyer who leaves a neg be justified by claiming a problem with “item condition” for an item never sent, received nor seen? Again, sellers DO NOT send items without first receiving payment.
While Norrington’s “solution” may be boss pleasing “disruptive innovation”, it flat out makes no sense in the real world of selling on eBay.
This policy is designed to address a specific issue raised at the eCommerce Forum in January. Specifically, sellers complained that the current protections for sellers with the UPI process - the buyer must fail to respond completely - was inadequate, since all a buyer had to do was enter a single character or comment that they had no intention of paying, and any negative or neutral FB left by the buyer would remain.
Sellers shouldn’t send items prior to receiving payment. But if a buyer is complaining about the product condition in the UPI process, it’s a good indication that the buyer did pay.
Buyers who respond and respond in a manner that clearly indicates the seller was not at fault, such as “I found another one” or “my spouse is in the hospital so I can’t pay” shouldn’t be negatively impacted by a buyer’s negative Feedback.
However, if the buyer states, “I refuse to pay via Western Union” or “I just sent payment” or “I paid” (NOTE, some sellers file false claims, those caught are suspended) or “I did a charge back because you refused to send me a refund for the damaged product” would result in negative or neutral Feedback remaining.
A buyer who is referencing product condition, not receiving the product, etc. is a very good indicator that the buyer sent money.
We will continue to evaluate this policy.
We used a really simple definition when determining exactly what constituted retaliatory negative feedback. It was strictly a user who received a negative feedback and subsequently left a negative feedback.Severely flawed research error. The definition of retaliatory feedback” is based on an assumption not a fact.
With millions and millions of transactions happening we have to study behavior over time in order to identify trends and to determine whether or not a specific trend needs addressing. The fact is that 4 years ago, sellers would leave a negative after a buyer had left a negative twice as frequently than a buyer would and today it is eight times as frequently. That is a significant change in behavior and one that needed to be addressed. Again, we examined a lot of alternatives before coming to the conclusion that the feedback system needed to change. We learned that when a buyer gets a negative feedback in the eBay marketplace, they discontinue participating in the marketplace and it’s not healthy for anyone.
In January we mentioned that we’d block buyers from leaving negative or neutral Feedback for 3 days for sellers “with a track record.” Since January, we’ve made the decision to increase the wait period to 7 days and define “track record” as active PowerSellers who have been on eBay for at least 12 months.
What about NON-Powersellers? Does this mean the buyer could leave us a negative IMMEDIATELY? Or does it mean they can do it within 3 days, and only PS get the 7 day protection? This needs immediate clarification. Richard, PLEASE get a clarification on this.
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Why does the cooling off period, given it is so short a timeframe, only apply to PS? Why not to those who have been on the site for years? Why not to everyone?
Right now only PowerSellers get the 7-day protection. This has replaced the 3-day block rule introduced back in January. Suspension types and frequencies of suspensions were analyzed and it was determined that PowerSellers were the safest population of users to single out for this protection. If safety issues arise we could restrict this beyond the 12-month, PowerSeller distinction and, conversely, if we see positive results and gain confidence in the 7-day protection model, we could expand to other sellers. I don’t see this happening in the next 6 months though.
Richard, while you’re at it, can you please get an explanation as to how a waiting period adversely affects buyers anyway? Sellers have to give buyers 7 days to pay before they can file a UID. Why not give ALL sellers the same 7 day “benefit of the doubt?”
Essentially, we’re trying to balance marketplace safety with seller satisfaction. We want buyers to know immediately about a potentially bad or fraudulent buyer experience to better avoid repeat occurrences.
The way we’re going to hold buyers accountable is through private reporting from sellers; through enhancing the tools that we’ve given sellers to help protect them from buyers.What enhancements? Here’s the thing — the only thing that I’ve ever found helpful on feedback left for buyers is utilizing their feedback received when someone is slow in paying (ie, I’m not sure if they will follow through). If they have negs for non-payment, I’ll file a UPI a bit faster. If they don’t, I give them a lot more time/leeway. Will sellers have access to info on whether UPI reports have been made against buyers?
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What enhancements to which tools?
Sellers will not have direct access to info on whether UPI reports have been made against buyers. However, there is a buyer requirement tool that will allow sellers to block buyers with a UPI track record of 2 or more items. We’ve also introduced a seller reporting hub.
We’re going to take a look at what buyers are saying in the UPI console and remove it if it is arbitrary.
Who is going to be doing this? What will be the guidelines as to what is “arbitrary?”
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Will the process of reporting a buyer be reviewed by an actual person or a bot? Will we receive canned answers?
Customer support representatives will be reviewing all reports. There will be canned answers associated with general issues raised for the hundreds and hundreds of cases reported. Reports will be handled on a case by case basis and will be deemed arbitrary if there is no mention of dissatisfaction with the seller or an unwillingness to complete the transaction with the seller.
Does this new PowerSeller policy constitute a barrier to entry? And what about seasonal sellers who cannot enjoy PS benefits because they sell for a few months each year (but most definitely qualify PS, they just are not onsite long enough each year to qualify)? And what about new sellers? Do they become targets with no protection? Do you guys not want new sellers?
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Do you see a place for the small time seller on eBay in the future? I would love to stay but I am being pushed away with every calculated change and it seems many others are also. Is this what eBay is counting on?
These changes don’t have anything to do with the size of the seller. They are focused on the buying experience. With regard to DSRs and feedback, smaller sellers are actually the folks in a position to take an advantage of the new changes because they already provide a more personalized, attentive service to the individual buyer… helping ensure positive feedback after a transaction is completed.
We want all sellers to feel welcome on eBay and the new PowerSeller policy should not be seen as a barrier to entry, rather it should be seen as another incentive to sell more on eBay.
Will anything be done to ensure the 12-month period does not backfire on anyone?
There will inevitably be a small group of folks that are negatively effected by the 12-month window but again, we think that recent performance and activity is a much better indicator of what a buyer can expect to experience than a performance rating from 7-8 years ago.
A couple of months ago I received an email saying that a positive feedback had been removed because a buyer had been NARU’d after a relatively short time on Ebay.
On the Australian site my feedback now reads 99.9% for the last 12 months in spite of the fact that I have not received a neutral or neg for about 8 years, and I have been on a full 100% for about 6 or 7 years. I have never entered into mutually withdrawn feedback.
Please ask Mr Burke whether feedback that has been completely removed by Ebay is being counted as “non positive” feedback. If not, can you please ask him to review my feedback and clarify why it is calculated at 99.9% for the last 12 months on the Australian site. I am not asking for any adjustment to my feedback, only a clarification (you know, accountability) - I can supply a friends user ID with no neutrals or neg’s in the last 12 months and 4.9 dsr’s that currently rates at 99.5% if he would like to review that as well.
This is likely a data anomaly - with over 7 billion Feedback we occasionally have these come up. But since the seller is in US, I would ask that they wait until we update the US site next week. If it is still inaccurate, I can have a database engineer look into it - but I bet it’s accurate next week.
EBay is accepting the unverified opinion of buyers a fact, seller’s loose status based on the unverified feedback and DSR”s that buyers leave. Will eBay accept the reports of extortion and buyer bad behavior from sellers as fact without verifying those reports? Or will they only count against the buyer after being reviewed? A public system of accountability for sellers with no review of the facts and private backdoor accountability systems for buyers with a review of facts is not an equal and just system. So ask Brian if seller reports about buyers will be reviewed. Will sellers need to provide proof of extortion?
Sellers reports of buyers will be reviewed thoroughly. Extortion is very difficult to prove so the more proof a seller can provide, the better off we’ll all be. It will be easier to take action against buyers that have a pattern of behavior rather than a single instance of reported extortion - again because it is very difficult to prove a single instance of extortion.
In order to cut down on potential extortion situations we’re reducing the number of days someone can leave feedback from 90 to 60 days.
*How* does this cut down on potential extortion situations?
The window of time in which a buyer could resort to extortion has been shortened. For example, in the past a buyer could wait until 85 days after a transaction to practice extortion. The longer the time period; the longer the opportunity. We’ve reduced that window of opportunity considerably.
If the buyer did not pay, shouldn’t the “burden of proof” be on the buyer to report the reason why he / she did not pay?
Better yet, why not allow “private” reporting by the buyer to let eBay know that there was a good reason that they didn’t pay the seller?
What percentage of buyers actually have a valid reason for nonpayment? How about some eBay “statistics” to give us a better understanding of eBay’s desire to protect this group of eBay buyers who NEED the ability to leave negative feedback for a seller that never received payment.
We need any information regarding potential fraud to be public, and to be public fast. With regard to statistical information, Brian indicated that he would get UPI stats for me to share on the blog.
Tagged: brian+burke, buyers, detailed+seller+rationgs, dsr, ebay, ebay.com, ecommerce, feedback, Marketplace, online+marketplace, sellers
BrendaOn 05.18.2008 at 5:42 am Said:
[Sentence edited: See Comment policy]
There has been 3 disconnects on the 3 times that I called in on the varius radio shows. On one episode he referred listeners to a particular auction number because he felt that it was the funniest one he had ever seen. These events are examples of the types of things that teenagers do.
I failed to see any professionalism present at all.
Everybody needs to stop concerning themselves over Ebay. Stop allowing yourselves to be sucked into this endless, futile dialogue. They’re going to do what they’re going to do. The time that is spent supplying commentary to the never ending ” Let’s Talk ” could be utilized to explore other options in developing income streams for yourselves.
It’s all smoke and mirrors. Give Ebay enough rope …
… and see if the addage’s finish comes to pass.
permacrisisOn 05.18.2008 at 7:04 am Said:
“The fact is that 4 years ago, sellers would leave a negative after a buyer had left a negative twice as frequently than a buyer would and today it is eight times as frequently. That is a significant change in behavior and one that needed to be addressed.”
[Sentence edited. See Comment policy]
We were better off trading with one another– much less money for YOU but also many less headaches. This was a TRADING COMMUNITY (not that you ‘upstairs folks’ ever did a swap or trade in your lives besides stock options) and the architecture is all wrong for large-scale, commercial activity. No shopping cart???? No DMV license numbers? Pshawww…
[Sentence edited: see comment policy]
When we (the former trading partners on this site) invigorate a new site, you will no doubt attempt to buy it –or buy it OFF, as you did with Yahoo Auctions USA…(violate any Sherman Acts lately?).
When that fails, you will whip out your Merc Xchange patents and probably sue others out of existence, like you are doing with craigslist. That’s because your moves are so predictable… a three year old scheming to get into the jelly jar. You just cannot BEAR to see a dollar change hands on the internet without you somehow being involved, can you? Then earn it ebay… EARN IT!
If craigslist were to one day encourage shipping, and display items from all over the US with no boundaries, they would completely blow you away.
implogOn 05.18.2008 at 7:06 am Said:
Richard
Would you ask the Feedback team who defined “retaliatory feedback” if the neutrals being left by this UK buyer are retaliatory?
He states in the neutal feedback he left:
“Good description & quick delivery - disappointed I have to leave feedback first”
As he writes, he is retaliating for not receiving feedback first.
Keep in mind that feedback is voluntary.
He leaves a neutral feedback which we now know is the same as a neg. Since this is a UK transaction, his negative actions can only be rated as a positive.
Is this what eBay meant by an “excellent buyer experience”? Is this what we will see on the U.S. site starting tomorrow? Is there anything in the mystical “Sellers Hub” that protects us from buyers like this?
Kathy_the_green_fishOn 05.18.2008 at 7:10 am Said:
Misty
Yes, I read that elsewhere.
It is totally tongue in cheek…a joke
a joke in poor taste, that is so close to the truth.
Patricia1
as a small seller and not a powerseller you get no waiting period. Your buyer can neg you seconds after they hit the buy key. I didn’t want you to have to wait for the bad news.
I just took down my last store item and will wait until somebody, anybody comes to their senses.
CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 05.18.2008 at 9:46 am Said:
@ Implog
Even though feedback is still voluntary, eBay has made it perfectly clear that they fully expect that seller’s should leave feedback for the buyer upon payment being made. Ebay believes that if a seller has a experience later on in the transaction, which they feel is negative, the seller should leave a follow up comment to the positive he/she already left for the buyer.
So in this instance, eBay would not feel that the buyer’s feedback is retaliatory. They would agree with the buyer that the transaction was fairly rated as neutral, since the seller didn’t leave feedback first.
So what is a seller to do?
Basically in the new eBay enviroment, a seller will need to start leaving feedback first, and leave a follow up to the original feedback, should anything bad happen later on. Exactly what eBay wants and expects.
The down side?
1. All buyers will have 100% and sellers will only know if a buyer is a scammer by going through pages and pages of feedback to read the follow up comments.
2. Sellers can cancel bids and block future sales to buyers they see with these follow up comments, but we all know the buyer can simply create a new id to get around these blocks.
3. Seller is wide open to now receive negs based on failed extortion attempts by the buyer, or give into the buyer’s extortion attempts to keep from getting a neg. All the while this buyer will continue on scamming sellers, since eBay doesn’t monitor follow-up feedback comments.
As I said before, the removal of the seller’s ability to leave negs for these type of buyers is simply a cosmetic fix. Unless eBay addresses and fixes the underlining CAUSE which create the EFFECT of sellers needing to leave negative feedback more often now than 4 years ago, the ACTUAL PROBLEM will continue to fester and become bigger.
When you go to the doctor, they first find out why you are not feeling well, and then prescribe a treatment which will address the particular infection or virus. Unfortunately, eBay is simply giving sellers a placebo for their problems, believing that simple wishful thinking will cure the situation. Not very logical, practical, or realistic idea.
Patricia1On 05.18.2008 at 10:05 am Said:
“Even though feedback is still voluntary, eBay has made it perfectly clear that they fully expect that seller’s should leave feedback for the buyer upon payment being made. Ebay believes that if a seller has a experience later on in the transaction, which they feel is negative, the seller should leave a follow up comment to the positive he/she already left for the buyer.”
Why all the bother? Since a seller can only leave positive feedback why not just make it automatic…either way its just as meaningless. Most sellers I’ve seen posting say they probably won’t bother with feedback at all. What’s the next hoop ebay? You’re turning this from business into some kind of weird three ring circus. Its not going to take buyers long to realize their feedback means nothing because every buyer will have great feedback and nothing else! You know, buyers DO have brains.
TonyOn 05.18.2008 at 10:17 am Said:
I always thought that sellers were working with ebay, the new rules suggest that sellers are working for ebay, it’s a whole different kettle of fish.
CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 05.18.2008 at 10:29 am Said:
@ Partrica
eBay is bothering because buyers want feedback on eBay. Buyers probably want feedback because it makes them feel good to have their “value” publicly displayed, they like attention, it makes it less likely that sellers will block them on higher dollar transaction, etc.
I even had one of my Amazon buyers contact me to leave feedback for them. Since I’m a Pro-Merchant, I was unable to do so. (Marketplace sellers can leave feedback for buyers, Pro-Merchants can’t.) Anyways, I’m not sure why that buyer wanted feedback, since buyer feedback is pretty much useless and irrelevant on a site like Amazon, but the customer wanted it none the less.
On a side note, I often have people rate the items I sell on Amazon, even though they never even purchased the item from me or any other seller on Amazon. The only logical conclusion I can draw, is that some people just like to see their name and opinions in print. One could make the same argument for blogs and forums too ;-).
If sellers take the stance of not leaving feedback at all, then I think there will be more cases occurring like the one Implog showed. That might not be the wisest idea if a seller wishes to continue using eBay. Ebay has also made it quite clear that they are not afraid of losing those type of sellers, in fact they fully expect and are looking forward to it. So the next hoop for sellers who choose to take that stance would most likely be restrictions and/or suspensions.
Please understand that I do not agree with what eBay is doing. I think it is wrong and will ultimately end up destroying the marketplace further. However, eBay is determined to keep to its course - the consequence be (… you know what). 
Any seller who wishes to try and continue rolling with the eBay punches, will have to alter their feedback practices if they wish to continue selling there.
PinkieOn 05.18.2008 at 11:31 am Said:
I will leave feedback for my customers who pay, and will follow-up if the situation requires it later on in the transaction. My concerns are mainly about non-paying bidders who know the eBay system and are aware that if they respond to Unpaid Item Dispute but DO NOT PAY that they can still leave comments. These individuals will be allowed to leave feedback and Detailed Seller Ratings, although they do not qualify as a BUYER in any sense of the word, and NO transaction was ever initiated between them and the seller because the item was UNPAID. This is epitome of ridiculous, that an individual who is not even a REAL customer can have an impact on your reputation on eBay as a seller. This is my primary concern over this entire new system of things. It would be much better if items were REQUIRED to be PAID before any feedback could be initiated whatsoever…
Pinkie
Patricia1On 05.18.2008 at 12:24 pm Said:
“If sellers take the stance of not leaving feedback at all, then I think there will be more cases occurring like the one Implog showed. That might not be the wisest idea if a seller wishes to continue using eBay. Ebay has also made it quite clear that they are not afraid of losing those type of sellers, in fact they fully expect and are looking forward to it.”
Yeah…and I bet you a phoney Picasso that that is just more Ebay-speak. 
LOL
Patricia1On 05.18.2008 at 12:26 pm Said:
By the way, most buyers I’ve talked to who understand the policy aren’t happy with it either. They are well aware that now their feedback is meaningless.
MistyOn 05.18.2008 at 12:33 pm Said:
@ Kathy
I assume it was as well but like you say so close to the truth. which is why I brought it here for clarification right from the horse’s mouth so to speak, I see it has been deleted entirely including my question for clarification on the matter… My question still stands! or will it be yet another unanswered question to add to the growing list of many?
I have always been one to believe that unanswered questions show proof of some truth they do not want to answer, otherwise they would have left it and refuted it’s validity… but then that would be open communication
I had a friend from Ireland email me today with their shock to find nothing listed in a category they frequented often, so even buyers are seeing that the bay is dead.
HenriettaOn 05.18.2008 at 12:33 pm Said:
The REASON retaliatory feedback increased, and it was indeed retaliatory feedback, was because HIGH VOLUME sellers used automated like-for-like feedback programs.
Many stated this openly in their listings.
These are the same sellers with a ‘track record’ who are now being rewarded with minimal and meaningless cool off periods, all the discounts, protections, promo days and starting next year the one on one meetings with eBay employees which will replace eBay live.
The simplest cure for the problem would have been to prohibit the use of such automated programs. The better fix would have been to provide a way for busy high volume sellers to leave bulk feedback quickly and conveniently on site rather than trying to force individual feedback.
As Brian has zero selling experience he can have no idea how long it would take to leave thousands of feedback a month transaction by transaction.
For example, a seller doing 35K transactions per month spending just one minute per feedback (unrealistic goal) would require 73 eight hour days to accomplish the task, each month. That is effectively FOUR FULL TIME totally focussed, never taking a potty break or vacation, employees.
In summary
Problem #1 feedback takes too long
Solution, someone makes an automated program
Result: retaliatory feedback becomes
Problem #2
Solution, route small sellers off the site
Result: listings & page views decline, buyers can’t find IT anymore, sell through rate tanks.
Patricia1On 05.18.2008 at 1:11 pm Said:
BRAVO Henrietta - you are always directly to the point. Unfortunately ebay loves the easy way around things. This time I feel they’re going to pay hard and heavy for not being more proactive in a hands on way instead of thinking up automatic programs that just botch things up more. Time will tell….I’m looking forward to it. I must say though - I’m really amazed that they are completely out of touch with the major problems on that site. Tsk Tsk.
CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 05.18.2008 at 1:44 pm Said:
“Problem #1 feedback takes too long
Solution, someone makes an automated program”
Henrietta, there are already several programs which do this. When I listed on eBay I used Auctiva - it’s free. I could also set it to post positive feedback for my buyers automatically (randomly selecting from a pre-assigned list of standard responses) either upon payment or the receipt of positive feedback being left for me.
This free, automatic system resulted in absolutely no extra time or effort on my part to leave feedback for my customers.
Patricia, no disrespect, but the small amount (in relation to the millions eBay has) of buyers that you have contact with is not really a fair sampling to draw the conclusion that buyers no longer care about feedback. Doing so is no different than eBay’s assumptions of Power Sellers being less of a risk for buyers.
Of course I’m sure we will all have a better idea once the changes are actually in effect and we seen both buyers and sellers relate their experiences with them.
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