Friday, May 16th, 2008
Feedback on Feedback to Feedback
All,
Thanks again for your kind words and emails. Sorry for the delay in getting this to you. As promised, I managed to spend time with Brian Burke this week and he tackled a lot of the follow-up questions that came through from the “Accountability” post written last week.
The following follow-up questions and answers are shown in no particular order. The questions, and the prior comments by Brian they refer to, are indented and shaded below. The new answers follow each shaded box.
I realize there were more questions asked but I wanted to get at least some addressed sooner rather than later. Thanks to Brian for taking the time to sit down with me again to discuss questions raised here on Ink.
Cheers,
RBH
Please re-round the circle squared by eBay President Lorrie Norrington on the eBay Announcement Board on March 20, 2008 titled “Update For Sellers”.
Norrington seems to be attempting to address the concerns of sellers who fear a neg from a non paying bidder. She attempts to mitigate the new “neg sellers only” policy by writing:
“What we have determined is that if the buyer does not specifically call out poor seller performance, item condition or transaction problems during the UPI process, eBay will remove the seller’s negative or neutral feedback — retroactively.”
This makes no sense. Sellers do not send items won in auctions before receiving payment. How can a buyer who leaves a neg be justified by claiming a problem with “item condition” for an item never sent, received nor seen? Again, sellers DO NOT send items without first receiving payment.
While Norrington’s “solution” may be boss pleasing “disruptive innovation”, it flat out makes no sense in the real world of selling on eBay.
This policy is designed to address a specific issue raised at the eCommerce Forum in January. Specifically, sellers complained that the current protections for sellers with the UPI process – the buyer must fail to respond completely – was inadequate, since all a buyer had to do was enter a single character or comment that they had no intention of paying, and any negative or neutral FB left by the buyer would remain.
Sellers shouldn’t send items prior to receiving payment. But if a buyer is complaining about the product condition in the UPI process, it’s a good indication that the buyer did pay.
Buyers who respond and respond in a manner that clearly indicates the seller was not at fault, such as “I found another one” or “my spouse is in the hospital so I can’t pay” shouldn’t be negatively impacted by a buyer’s negative Feedback.
However, if the buyer states, “I refuse to pay via Western Union” or “I just sent payment” or “I paid” (NOTE, some sellers file false claims, those caught are suspended) or “I did a charge back because you refused to send me a refund for the damaged product” would result in negative or neutral Feedback remaining.
A buyer who is referencing product condition, not receiving the product, etc. is a very good indicator that the buyer sent money.
We will continue to evaluate this policy.
We used a really simple definition when determining exactly what constituted retaliatory negative feedback. It was strictly a user who received a negative feedback and subsequently left a negative feedback.Severely flawed research error. The definition of retaliatory feedback” is based on an assumption not a fact.
With millions and millions of transactions happening we have to study behavior over time in order to identify trends and to determine whether or not a specific trend needs addressing. The fact is that 4 years ago, sellers would leave a negative after a buyer had left a negative twice as frequently than a buyer would and today it is eight times as frequently. That is a significant change in behavior and one that needed to be addressed. Again, we examined a lot of alternatives before coming to the conclusion that the feedback system needed to change. We learned that when a buyer gets a negative feedback in the eBay marketplace, they discontinue participating in the marketplace and it’s not healthy for anyone.
In January we mentioned that we’d block buyers from leaving negative or neutral Feedback for 3 days for sellers “with a track record.” Since January, we’ve made the decision to increase the wait period to 7 days and define “track record” as active PowerSellers who have been on eBay for at least 12 months.
What about NON-Powersellers? Does this mean the buyer could leave us a negative IMMEDIATELY? Or does it mean they can do it within 3 days, and only PS get the 7 day protection? This needs immediate clarification. Richard, PLEASE get a clarification on this.
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Why does the cooling off period, given it is so short a timeframe, only apply to PS? Why not to those who have been on the site for years? Why not to everyone?
Right now only PowerSellers get the 7-day protection. This has replaced the 3-day block rule introduced back in January. Suspension types and frequencies of suspensions were analyzed and it was determined that PowerSellers were the safest population of users to single out for this protection. If safety issues arise we could restrict this beyond the 12-month, PowerSeller distinction and, conversely, if we see positive results and gain confidence in the 7-day protection model, we could expand to other sellers. I don’t see this happening in the next 6 months though.
Richard, while you’re at it, can you please get an explanation as to how a waiting period adversely affects buyers anyway? Sellers have to give buyers 7 days to pay before they can file a UID. Why not give ALL sellers the same 7 day “benefit of the doubt?”
Essentially, we’re trying to balance marketplace safety with seller satisfaction. We want buyers to know immediately about a potentially bad or fraudulent buyer experience to better avoid repeat occurrences.
The way we’re going to hold buyers accountable is through private reporting from sellers; through enhancing the tools that we’ve given sellers to help protect them from buyers.What enhancements? Here’s the thing — the only thing that I’ve ever found helpful on feedback left for buyers is utilizing their feedback received when someone is slow in paying (ie, I’m not sure if they will follow through). If they have negs for non-payment, I’ll file a UPI a bit faster. If they don’t, I give them a lot more time/leeway. Will sellers have access to info on whether UPI reports have been made against buyers?
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What enhancements to which tools?
Sellers will not have direct access to info on whether UPI reports have been made against buyers. However, there is a buyer requirement tool that will allow sellers to block buyers with a UPI track record of 2 or more items. We’ve also introduced a seller reporting hub.
We’re going to take a look at what buyers are saying in the UPI console and remove it if it is arbitrary.
Who is going to be doing this? What will be the guidelines as to what is “arbitrary?”
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Will the process of reporting a buyer be reviewed by an actual person or a bot? Will we receive canned answers?
Customer support representatives will be reviewing all reports. There will be canned answers associated with general issues raised for the hundreds and hundreds of cases reported. Reports will be handled on a case by case basis and will be deemed arbitrary if there is no mention of dissatisfaction with the seller or an unwillingness to complete the transaction with the seller.
Does this new PowerSeller policy constitute a barrier to entry? And what about seasonal sellers who cannot enjoy PS benefits because they sell for a few months each year (but most definitely qualify PS, they just are not onsite long enough each year to qualify)? And what about new sellers? Do they become targets with no protection? Do you guys not want new sellers?
————
Do you see a place for the small time seller on eBay in the future? I would love to stay but I am being pushed away with every calculated change and it seems many others are also. Is this what eBay is counting on?
These changes don’t have anything to do with the size of the seller. They are focused on the buying experience. With regard to DSRs and feedback, smaller sellers are actually the folks in a position to take an advantage of the new changes because they already provide a more personalized, attentive service to the individual buyer… helping ensure positive feedback after a transaction is completed.
We want all sellers to feel welcome on eBay and the new PowerSeller policy should not be seen as a barrier to entry, rather it should be seen as another incentive to sell more on eBay.
Will anything be done to ensure the 12-month period does not backfire on anyone?
There will inevitably be a small group of folks that are negatively effected by the 12-month window but again, we think that recent performance and activity is a much better indicator of what a buyer can expect to experience than a performance rating from 7-8 years ago.
A couple of months ago I received an email saying that a positive feedback had been removed because a buyer had been NARU’d after a relatively short time on Ebay.
On the Australian site my feedback now reads 99.9% for the last 12 months in spite of the fact that I have not received a neutral or neg for about 8 years, and I have been on a full 100% for about 6 or 7 years. I have never entered into mutually withdrawn feedback.
Please ask Mr Burke whether feedback that has been completely removed by Ebay is being counted as “non positive” feedback. If not, can you please ask him to review my feedback and clarify why it is calculated at 99.9% for the last 12 months on the Australian site. I am not asking for any adjustment to my feedback, only a clarification (you know, accountability) – I can supply a friends user ID with no neutrals or neg’s in the last 12 months and 4.9 dsr’s that currently rates at 99.5% if he would like to review that as well.
This is likely a data anomaly – with over 7 billion Feedback we occasionally have these come up. But since the seller is in US, I would ask that they wait until we update the US site next week. If it is still inaccurate, I can have a database engineer look into it – but I bet it’s accurate next week.
EBay is accepting the unverified opinion of buyers a fact, seller’s loose status based on the unverified feedback and DSR”s that buyers leave. Will eBay accept the reports of extortion and buyer bad behavior from sellers as fact without verifying those reports? Or will they only count against the buyer after being reviewed? A public system of accountability for sellers with no review of the facts and private backdoor accountability systems for buyers with a review of facts is not an equal and just system. So ask Brian if seller reports about buyers will be reviewed. Will sellers need to provide proof of extortion?
Sellers reports of buyers will be reviewed thoroughly. Extortion is very difficult to prove so the more proof a seller can provide, the better off we’ll all be. It will be easier to take action against buyers that have a pattern of behavior rather than a single instance of reported extortion – again because it is very difficult to prove a single instance of extortion.
In order to cut down on potential extortion situations we’re reducing the number of days someone can leave feedback from 90 to 60 days.
*How* does this cut down on potential extortion situations?
The window of time in which a buyer could resort to extortion has been shortened. For example, in the past a buyer could wait until 85 days after a transaction to practice extortion. The longer the time period; the longer the opportunity. We’ve reduced that window of opportunity considerably.
If the buyer did not pay, shouldn’t the “burden of proof” be on the buyer to report the reason why he / she did not pay?
Better yet, why not allow “private” reporting by the buyer to let eBay know that there was a good reason that they didn’t pay the seller?
What percentage of buyers actually have a valid reason for nonpayment? How about some eBay “statistics” to give us a better understanding of eBay’s desire to protect this group of eBay buyers who NEED the ability to leave negative feedback for a seller that never received payment.
We need any information regarding potential fraud to be public, and to be public fast. With regard to statistical information, Brian indicated that he would get UPI stats for me to share on the blog.
Tagged: brian+burke, buyers, detailed+seller+rationgs, dsr, ebay, ebay.com, ecommerce, feedback, Marketplace, online+marketplace, sellers
Patricia1On May 30, 2008 at 11:10 pm Said:
Dawn – I didn’t for one minute expect anything different….we seem to be a dime a dozen to ebay. We’re dispensible and they show it on a daily basis. I guess in that respect – they’re being honest – perhaps its us who just refuse to see the light. I’ve stopped listing on ebay – every sale I make elsewhere is a sale they won’t get and that makes me feel great ;-) I’m also just as sure that one day they’re going to need us but it will be too late.
MechelleOn May 30, 2008 at 11:30 pm Said:
no lilies??? I love lilies- you should do some lilies in acrylic
Those miniatures are miniature LOL wow how do you do them so small?
LiOn May 31, 2008 at 1:06 am Said:
You now click on the Feedback forum and still find the statement – A neutral rating has no impact on the Feedback score
This is a joke if not a lie
implogOn May 31, 2008 at 1:30 am Said:
@ Dawn
You wrote:
“So much for the “protection” eBay promised us against unwarranted negative feedback.”
Seller’s Hub!
That will be our salvation and will right all wrongs – the great and mighty (and apparently mythical) Seller’s Hub!
DawnOn May 31, 2008 at 9:28 am Said:
If the so-called Seller’s Hub is actually the “report a problem” page, it’s not much more than a gathering of links that were already there before. I find it amusing that several of the reasons for reporting feedback abuse apply ONLY to feedback left FOR buyers by sellers…on OUR super-de-duper seller protection hub.
SandiOn May 31, 2008 at 9:55 am Said:
That will be our salvation and will right all wrongs – the great and mighty (and apparently mythical) Seller’s Hub!
That’s why I specifically asked Richard if he could get for details 6 or 7 times.
Of course, my questions regarding # of staff assigned, guidelines, bots or no bots, etc went unanswered.
implogOn May 31, 2008 at 11:22 am Said:
I just posted this on Seller Central. Hopefully I’m not misinterpreting the tamebay article.
~~~~~
Could This Be the Start of A “Sellers Hub”?
Like the mythical unicorn, eBay execs have talked of a “Sellers Hub”, a promised eBay feature that would allow the evil sellers to protect themselves from the pure as the driven snow buyers.
Sellers were “excited”.
But sadly, the “Sellers Hub” has yet to arrive.
Suffice it to say, sellers aren’t “delighted”.
Some have asked how the top thinkers at eBay could have made all the May 19th Feedback “enhancements” and forgot to go live with the “Sellers Hub”; how such an oversight would have been possible in an organization so rich in talent as eBay.
We may never know why it has arrived late (if it arrives at all) but the article below from tamebay.com might be, at long last, some good news for sellers, a bone, as it were.
Oddly, there is no mention of this as yet on the eBay Information Central Community News Announcement Board or in the hard hitting eBay Chatter Blog.
~~~~~
Reporting problem buyers now easier for UK sellers
May 31, 2008
There have been a couple of changes on eBay over the last few days which should make it a little easier for sellers to deal with bad bidders. Firstly on eBay UK, a new link to “report a problem you had with this transaction” has appeared on the page to leave feedback for buyers. The target of this link gives a list of problems which can be reported, including unpaid items, feedback abuses, unwelcome and malicious buying, and customs fraud (asking for items to be misrepresented on customs documentation). Sellers who have set their breach of policy buyer block will not have to deal with buyers with multiple reports; it appears that eBay is just taking sellers’ words for the accuracy of the reporting here.
Meanwhile in the US, there is a new buyer block available to block buyers who are not ID verified. As ID verification is not available on all eBay sites (not on eBay UK, for example), this won’t roll out everywhere just yet, but it should be very useful, for example, to US sellers of big ticket items who want to be certain that only those buyers who take eBay very seriously will be allowed to bid.
http://www.tamebay.com/2008/05/reporting-problem-buyers-now-easier-for-uk-sellers.html
CheriOn May 31, 2008 at 11:43 am Said:
Dawn, I had the same exact experience. When I reported a malicious feedback, I got an automated reply.
implogOn May 31, 2008 at 11:50 am Said:
Another shopper having an “excellent buying experience” leaving negative feedback for sellers the day the auction ends.
On one, she wins at 8 PM, then leaves a neg for the less than “delighted” seller 3 hours after end of auction, 11 PM, saying “Took way too long to ship.”
President Norrington, Mr. Burke, your thoughts?
implogOn May 31, 2008 at 12:00 pm Said:
Update on Neg Feedback Left report I just posted in which buyer was leaving negs hours after end of auction.
This little piggy’s gone home – NARU! The negs left are gone from the sellers’ histories.
The Feedback Truth Squad is working with fast fingers today or perhaps someone WD40′d the bots.
Patricia1On May 31, 2008 at 12:04 pm Said:
I kind of see that bot that takes care of seller’s complaints as an old manniquin inside of a glass topped booth – she’s dressed like an old witch and has her hands hovering over a crystal ball……there is a slot to insert coins and out will pop your fortune….. so much for ebay “protection” LOL
implogOn May 31, 2008 at 12:14 pm Said:
Well that was fast.
One feedback abuser goes down and another springs up. Maybe the “Sellers Hub” will contain a “Whack A Mole” feature.
Yet another shopper having “excellent buying experiences” while leaving a trail of less than “delighted” sellers behind.
President Norrington, Mr. Burke, your thoughts?
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=calvin5167&ftab=FeedbackLeftForOthers
Patricia1On May 31, 2008 at 2:07 pm Said:
Oh….I was just wandering thru my ebay groups and they have nicknamed Best Match…..Bowel Movement LOL I’m still laughing over it. Twasn’t me Richard – that comes right from the mouth of other sellers!
DawnOn May 31, 2008 at 2:34 pm Said:
Richard, can you look at this thread on the Stores Board:
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?threadID=2000576208&start=120
This seller received two negs from a NPB who falsely claimed in the dispute console that the seller said the items were out of stock. This “buyer” has been gleefully posting on the Feedback Board about how much fun she’s having bombing sellers with negs. She apparently has several IDs with which she is doing this, and I think some have already been suspended.
The “buyer” has invalid contact information (phone number is disconnected, and when the seller requested contact info through eBay, the address was blank), and was reported by the seller for this 4 days ago. The “buyer” is still registered, and the negs have not been removed. However, the “false positives” the seller left have been removed.
This seller has gone four days now with her listings lowered in search and those negs glaring at any potential customers that do find her listings. She has filed the reports, emailed T&S and called the PS line…all 4 days ago. She has gotten zero response.
Why is something like this allowed to happen?
implogOn May 31, 2008 at 7:19 pm Said:
The text copied below was posted on Seller Central this afternoon under the title “Sellers, I just got the following email:“. It is allegedly an email he/she received from an auction winner.
There is also a thread on the Power Seller board about sellers receiving this email or a similar one from auction winners. The title of the thread is “Received Any Feedback Extortion Emails?? I Did”
One Power Seller responded to the thread with this:
I’ve been dealing with one for 2 weeks. Still going back and forth with T & S trying to get the jack**s thrown off.
I broke down the one block text email as it was posted into paragraphs for easier reading.
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Listen very carefully. I am the winner of this item. I have 4 other eBay Users in place either bidding on or have won items from you plus myself totaling 5.
We are prepared to leave you 5 Positive Feedbacks or 5 Negative Feedbacks depending on your actions. In a nutshell, we are in the business of selling Positive Feedbacks to eBay Sellers for $20 each, totaling $100 for 5 Positive Feedbacks.
If you purchase the 5 Positive Feedbacks for $100, you not only get to sell your items, you also receive 5 Positive Feedbacks. As you well know, Feedback is EVERYTHING to an eBay seller on whether they are successful or not.
I’m sure that you want to remain successful in your eBay business. Plus, along with the 5 Positive Feedbacks, we will also Guarantee Never to contact you again and we take you off of our list. You’ll even get a receipt for your purchase.
Now, here’s the important part.
If you refuse to purchase the 5 Positive Feedbacks, we will leave you 5 Negative Feedbacks for starters. We have 100’s & 100’s of eBay Users in place that we can use to leave feedbacks. In fact, we have enough to consistently leave you Negative Feedbacks for months resulting in you having to shut down your business.
The absolute worst thing that you can do at this point is to try and contact eBay at any time about this or refuse to cooperate; we Will start leaving you Negative Feedbacks and shut your business down.
Make no mistake, we’ve been doing this for years and have the power & resources to continually leave you Negative Feedbacks resulting in the closing of your business.
Think about this, if you try to report us to eBay and they try and suspend our account or something like that, it will not stop us whatsoever. Remember, I said we have 100’s if not 1,000’s of eBay Users in place that we can use to leave you Negative Feedbacks over & over again until you are forced to shut your business down that you worked so hard to build up.
Even if eBay were to keep suspending our user accounts, we have plenty more that we can use to keep leaving you Negative Feedbacks and there’s No way that eBay can keep up and stop us. They have tried & failed miserably. They also know about what we do. So the best and smartest thing that you can do is protect your business and just purchase the 5 Positive Feedbacks from us. That way, it’s done and over with and you can successfully continue to run your business without ever hearing from us again.
We will give you up to 72 hours from now, to reply. The sooner, the better of course. Just send us an email stating that you want to purchase the 5 Positive Feedbacks from us and let us know your main email that you use so we can contact you.
If we don’t hear from you by the end of the 72 hours, we will assume that you are refusing to cooperate and we will start leaving you Negative Feedbacks. So don’t do anything stupid. The smartest thing that you can do is take this seriously, we know what we’re doing. After we hear your reply to this email, we will contact you with further instructions.
Patricia1On May 31, 2008 at 7:32 pm Said:
I posted the link to that thread but it never showed up here. Glad you posted the whole thing. I think its VERY important and one of those things I bet ebay never though of ;-)
Patricia1On May 31, 2008 at 7:33 pm Said:
In a way, I love it…kind of shoves that no-negative policy right down ebay’s throat!
JJHOn May 31, 2008 at 7:38 pm Said:
In a way, I love it…kind of shoves that no-negative policy right down ebay’s throat!
And I suppose you think they care?
implogOn May 31, 2008 at 7:44 pm Said:
The shopper having an “excellent buying experience” then allegedly sending the extortion emails hit one Power Seller with two different IDs winning 3 auctions totalling approx $350.
President Norrington and Mr. Burke, this does not make sellers “delighted”.
Patricia1On May 31, 2008 at 7:54 pm Said:
JJH – yeah – because if its true and they are extorting money from sellers – then its a federal matter and ebay will end up taking a back seat to that kind of investigation. OP already was told to contact the FBI Fraud Division.
Patricia1On May 31, 2008 at 7:57 pm Said:
I heard this was not the only seller who got this letter? I think the thread also mentions a powerseller on the powerseller board posting it too.
DakotaOn May 31, 2008 at 11:25 pm Said:
Where’s Richard and why isn’t he answering all of the questions we have been posting on this thread or having the appropriate eBay rep respond?
As best as I can tell the last time he responded to this thread was 05-27.
Is he having a problem coming up with answers is eBay not providing them?
I am bugged by this as we need more than a place to vent. WE NEED ANSWERS! Actually, we deserve them.
At this point, I see this blog as nothing more than another smokescreen. It is providing more false hopes to those affected by the new policies.
Richard, please provide the answers to all of the questions being presented. Please provide answers with substance… not eBayspeak.
Prove me wrong.
When I came here I had hoped for answers and so far, I have found nothing that I can not find on the discussion boards and/or the AC except for comradre of others in the same plight as I. While comradre is nice, I expected more of this blog.
MistyOn May 31, 2008 at 11:37 pm Said:
Things like this are why I refuse to list anything it’s to hostile of an enviroment.
MistyOn May 31, 2008 at 11:52 pm Said:
Could this be yet another?
[Quote from seller] I won a dispute earlier today and the case was closed. The buyer then emails me and bids on my auctions (to leave retaliatory neg). I reported him and everything but heres where I need help on.
I got logged out of my email account for some reason and couldn’t log back in. Same for eBay. The guy said this in one of his emails right before this happened: “Here at the UW studying computer science, you don’t think I have your IP I laugh in the face of foolishness. hey let me say you send me one more email I will attach it to my IC3 plus IP’s are so easy to find these days, not to mention I have your actual name address ect…. <= thats for report”
Now, in PayPal, the case is under review again and says that I, the seller, appealed the decision… EVEN THOUGH I WON! I did NOT do anything in PayPal. What is going on?
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?threadID=1000711335&tstart=0&mod=1212302002692
MechelleOn June 1, 2008 at 12:05 am Said:
OMG- what a nut
well I hope those people call the federal authorities- that is insane
@Dakota
Maybe we should collect the questions and list them in one post to make it easier for Richard
Patricia1On June 1, 2008 at 12:06 am Said:
Don’t know where Richard is. I would bet if he was around that email posted on here would get pulled. The whole thread was pulled on seller central but auctionbytes got hold of it before ebay had a chance to remove it. It will be interesting to see what happens…if anything. I’m just happy I was able to finish my last two auctions and now I’ll just sit back and enjoy watching the action.
MechelleOn June 1, 2008 at 3:41 am Said:
Stop
before you follow through on eBay’s suggestion/expectation be aware if you leave feedback immediately after receiving payment and the buyer later attempts extortion you will no longer have the opportunity to report the buyer. So maintain previous feedback practices. No need to let eBay off the hook by following their better for them suggestions.
DakotaOn June 1, 2008 at 5:11 am Said:
Mechelle, why can’t a seller file a report after feedback has been left?
There are lots of ways to extort sellers and I don’t understand what feedback has to do with any reports that might need to be filed.
MechelleOn June 1, 2008 at 5:57 am Said:
I don’t know why- I don’t understand 99% of what motivates the procedures and policies on eBay. However, it was noted by a few sellers that after leaving feedback the link to the “sellers Hub” is removed from the feedback page. So I guess you would still have opportunity to do the typical eBay run around that has always been used.
There is another issue I’ll try to find it again, but what I found interesting was a seller leaving positive was good enough proof for a buyers complaint. I can’t remember the topic, but lets face it if you leave positive feedback how can you argue anything has gone wrong with credibility? Anyway, I would simply make sure you take a good look at whatever you can use as indicators of a buyers character before you leave feedback. I think it is becoming clear that the best asset we have now is looking at feedback left by the buyer.
JJHOn June 1, 2008 at 6:26 am Said:
JJH – yeah – because if its true and they are extorting money from sellers – then its a federal matter and ebay will end up taking a back seat to that kind of investigation. OP already was told to contact the FBI Fraud Division.
Pat, I read on Auctionbytes this morning that the text of the extortion threat was removed, censored, excised (choose your own words) from the ebay discussion board where it appeared, yet it still appears here. Why would they do this?
The text of that threat has also been duplicated on auction bytes and other places, so there is no sweeping it under the rug.
How will they deal with this I wonder. Did no one think there was a dark side of humanity that would think this sort of scheme up? When you automatically tie unsolicited comments and rankings to a sellers account viability (it’s standing, and if or not it gets canceled) you open up a hole the size of which can not be calculated. I’ll bet nobody saw this coming in this incarnation! I know I didn’t, because I don’t have a criminal mind and don’t think that way.
It should be interesting to see what the response to this is and how it’s handled.
JJHOn June 1, 2008 at 6:34 am Said:
but lets face it if you leave positive feedback how can you argue anything has gone wrong with credibility?
I typically left feedback first, and have for years. Once I get payment, and I ship, my side of the obligation is over. I thank the buyer for fast payment and I move on. In my final email to the buyer, indicating I’ve shipped and how long they can expect delivery to take, I also indicate that they should not hesitate to contact me if something is wrong and I will work to make it right. That’s the best I can do, and it has always worked.
I can’t sit around and worry that there are also bad people out there. There always have been. That’s like worrying about if an asteroid will strike earth and destroy all life on it. Yea, one day it’s going to happen, but will probably be well beyond my lifetime.
BrendaOn June 1, 2008 at 7:40 am Said:
Has anybody considered that the time spent endlessly posting here and on the countless discussion areas within Ebay could be put to better use elsewhere?
I’m still watching and see no measurable changes within the Ebay entirety.
It’s a pity.
” Better to aim high and miss the mark, than to aim low and make it. “
kristeazOn June 1, 2008 at 7:50 am Said:
I have never before written on a blog, but feel that the recent changes leave me no other alternative. I am a small time seller- just things around the house or cleaning out hte closet, etc. This new system has really hurt me. I received a NEUTRAL from a buyer who did not have a confirmed address because he had to wait to confirm his address- my posting specifically stated “confirmed addresses only.” Ebay gladly took their final value fee on a $10 item- and I got smacked a neutral because of “time.” With the old feedback system I was upset- but accepting of the fact of what happened. However, the new feedback system has me at 98.9% because of this. I work hard. I communicate. I please. I spend A LOT of time making a little bit of extra cash (which I then re-invest on ebay). I feel there is a betrayal of the system here. I don’t have the same good feeling about my favorite site.
Additionally:
1) No system is a fair or just system when it does not permit EVERYONE to leave any type of feedback. What about the buyer that jerks you around for 3 weeks without paying- the extra time, etc the seller has to spend on this transaction. This behavior can only be left as positive? The seller is at the buyer’s mercy because the seller can do no other than leave positive feedback?
2) The 52 week idea is flawed. This feature is already built in- buyers can check an activity- and feedback- over a 1 month or 6 month period, so there is no need to not use ALL feedback in figuring a feedback score.
SandiOn June 1, 2008 at 8:39 am Said:
I’ll bet nobody saw this coming in this incarnation! I know I didn’t, because I don’t have a criminal mind and don’t think that way.
I didn’t think of that one either BUT
I had enough common sense to realize there was bad on both sides, that as my favorite expression “ebay is an opportunity venue” – meaning for every crooked/bad/unreasonable seller, there is a crooked/bad/unreasonable buyer.
Now given ebay is implying the majority of sellers are crooks – it stands to reason they SHOULD have realized there was the crooked buyer side they simply opened the door for.
Of course, ebay management consistency illustrates common sense isn’t one of their skill sets.
Patricia1On June 1, 2008 at 9:00 am Said:
JJH – I have a feeling this blog isn’t accomplishing what it set out to do – which was to try to convince sellers that what ebay is doing is right. There were a couple of lukewarm attempts – but since the blog didn’t draw countless users – just us few over and over again – its probably been mostly abandoned. At least that’s my thought on it…or that post with the extortion letter would have been long gone. No matter – Auctionbytes grabbed it almost immediately and they’ve written about it on their blot – but didn’t show the letter. I’m sure they have a screenshot of that thread though.
I really don’t think ebay instituted this no-negative policy for the good of the buyers – but only as a “gimmick” to get them to come back again. Give someone power – the head inflates as does the ego ;-) They could care less that its at the sellers’ expense – they’ve been showing that all along.
Patricia1On June 1, 2008 at 10:15 am Said:
Every once in awhile you run across a real gem. This particular buyer has been discussed in one of my groups. Since May 25, 2008 he has handed out 46 negatives and 7 neutrals! In fact every single feedback from May 25, 2008 on up till present has been either a negative or a neutral!!! I’ll gladly give ebay the user’s ID if they have the stomach to ask me for it! But I bet they don’t! This is the new ebay folks. Which is why I stopped listing there.
PatOn June 1, 2008 at 10:16 am Said:
As a buyer I am glad about this new policy. An example of how this has hurt at least one honest buyer in the past … I purchased a jacket from someone, the photos were touched up and the jacket folded in such a way that the true condition of the jacket could not be seen. Once I received the jacket, I left Neutral feedback due to the mistated condition of the jacket. As a result, the buyer left Neutral feedback on me. This is wrong and I have not purchased anything from eBay since then. I have ALWAYS paid immediately as soon as the auction ends. A buyer has NEVER had to contact me for payment. I ended up paying $90 to have the jacket redyed so that it was wearable! However, my 100% positive rating as a Buyer has been damaged through no actions of my own, other than to give the Seller a Neutral rating.
DakotaOn June 1, 2008 at 11:02 am Said:
Richard…..
Come out and plaaaayyyy….
Richard, are you real or are you a bot…..
We would like some REAL answers, please…..
SandiOn June 1, 2008 at 11:54 am Said:
… I purchased a jacket from someone, the photos were touched up and the jacket folded in such a way that the true condition of the jacket could not be seen. Once I received the jacket, I left Neutral feedback due to the mistated condition of the jacket.
Isn’t it unforunate that ebay did not educate you so you would know feedback solved nothing, but you could have filed a significantly not as described and gotten a full refund.
JJHOn June 1, 2008 at 12:12 pm Said:
“I’m still watching and see no measurable changes within the Ebay entirety.”
Still waiting? For what? There have been numerous measurable changes – all wrong ones.
“I have a feeling this blog isn’t accomplishing what it set out to do – which was to try to convince sellers that what ebay is doing is right.”
I have to agree, this blog is accomplishing absolutely nothing. It’s just become another place to complain to a wall.
This is a PR spot. Like the “minty” building. Who cares? The “Nomad”. Who cares? I mean really, I could care less that eBay has a nice new “green” building that is ecologically friendly. We have much greater problems here. Oh, and that nice “minty green” building? Just remember who paid for it.
DakotaOn June 1, 2008 at 12:44 pm Said:
JJH,
Like I said earlier today but with typos on the – know where you stand thread (here without typos):
>>I think the company is definitely striving to do a better job at being more public and open with the reasoning and rationale behind business decisions; in this instance, changes made in the marketplace.<<
It’s really just a smoke screen.
There are no answers here other than what are in the silly eBay announcements.
Make this blog worth the trouble and print something useful.
Who cares about MINT? I know us sellers built it for you but most of us will never see it or step foot in it.
Who cares about Nomad… most sellers do not make enough profit to travel across their state let alone around the world.
Richard, dump the garbage and give us some real meat and potatoes information please.
implogOn June 1, 2008 at 1:04 pm Said:
Hi Richard:
You might remember that I’ve asked President Norrington a time or two since the inception of your blog to clarify her confusing statement on non-paying auction winners being allowed to give negative feedback to honest sellers who file an Unpaid Item Dispute (UID).
I’ve copied a post from eBay’s Seller Central below from a seller who received a neg from a non-paying auction winner after filing a UID. The injured seller appealed to Ebay and was told the neg was justified simply because the auction winner “responded” to the UID — with the words “I’m not going to pay”.
While the auction winner may have had an “excellent buying experience”, the poor seller is now strapped with an unfair neg from a non-paying bidder or “deadbeat” as we sellers call them.
As we are seeing (tamebay article on “Dolphins”), negs and negtrals, deserved or undeserved, can lead to eBay punishment, loss of income and possible banishment.
This all could have been nipped in the bud had President Norrington or Mr. Burke clarified the Announcement board post on UID neg feedback.
They didn’t and now we sellers have yet more to scrape off our seller shoes because of their disregard.
Problems like the one outlined in the text copied below will only multiply causing even more bad will for ebay, more less than “delighted” sellers and an odor far worse than the current stench.
On another matter, have you sold anything lately on eBay? How’s that going?
Mistreated, innocent, permanently damaged eBay seller’s post copied below.
~~~~~
I have never posted before, but thought that my recent experience with ebay’s new feedback policy might be helpful to those of you out there. Immediately after one of my recent auctions ended, the “buyer” emailed to say that he was not going to pay. After the required 7-day waiting period, I filed an unpaid item dispute so I could recoup my fees. The non-payer responded to the dispute by indicating (in clear, plain English) that he was NOT GOING TO PAY. He then left me a negative. And here’s the kicker — ebay’s response to my request to have the negative removed? THEY WILL NOT REMOVE IT because the “buyer” RESPONDED TO THE unpaid item dispute. Never mind that he responded by saying that he was not going to pay. He responded, and evidently that was good enough for ebay. Oh, and by the way, my feedback percentage prior to this change? 99.5% after 8 years of full-time trading. 41 negatives out of 8000 transactions. My feedback total now? 97.5%, a lowered search rating, and a “poor” rating in the “seller dashboard.” And this is appropriate?
SandiOn June 1, 2008 at 4:29 pm Said:
Richard, I asked before and never got a response but it is something you should be able to answer without having to get someone else to have time, respond, etc.
Many of us are frustrated with the lack of response to key questions, or the length of time it takes to finally hear anything – so how is your position set up?
I mean, take the question regarding Featured Listings and Best Match Search – that is a critically important question given the fees associated. Granted, one would think ebay would have been ontop on it before rolling out best match and responded proactively – but they did not.
When a question comes up like that, what are the processes you have to go through to get a response. It would help if he knew what hoops you had to jump through.
Realistically to us “outsiders” – it would seem you simply pop an email to the correct party, they respond in one sentence “Featured items come up first” – “No featured items are ranked using the same criteria as best match” – end of story.
To not let sellers know is dishonest given they are paying fees under the theory they show up higher than standard listings. If in fact they are not, ebay should do the morally correct thing and refund all fees related and publically state the new policy.
Having to wait one day for a response to that particular question is wrong, much less days or weeks.
So what is the process you have been given to work within? How do you get answers to questions?
Patricia1On June 1, 2008 at 4:44 pm Said:
My uneducated opinion is they come up at the top of the listings but in best match order. (shrug) How else could they be running? The last FP I ran sure wasn’t worth it – it had less hits then the small nude I had up on regular auction!
SandiOn June 1, 2008 at 6:43 pm Said:
So you are trying to get an answer to Vera’s question asked May 28th regarding Feature Listings & Best Match? Apparently she has been trying for a bit to get an answer without success.
VeraOn 05.28.2008 at 7:26 am Said:
Richard
I would love to know why Featured Plus is still in existence when it no longer has relevance? Since Best Match, any reason for the use of FP has has gone out the window? There is no such thing as being Featured, so why the extra cost? This is truly being asked respectfully, and is something we artists have been asking MarniSue as well. She has been unable to answer the question, saying only that Best Match enhances the buyer experience. In the meantime hords upon hords of product is never even seen, as there is no rhymne or reasoning to listing line up.
Richard Brewer-Hay On 05.29.2008 at 9:44 am Said:
@ VERA – Great question. Let me find out more for you.
Cheers,
RBH
Patricia1On June 1, 2008 at 7:24 pm Said:
Richard – I didn’t ask a question with this one:
“Every once in awhile you run across a real gem. This particular buyer has been discussed in one of my groups. Since May 25, 2008 he has handed out 46 negatives and 7 neutrals! In fact every single feedback from May 25, 2008 on up till present has been either a negative or a neutral!!! I’ll gladly give ebay the user’s ID if they have the stomach to ask me for it! But I bet they don’t! This is the new ebay folks. Which is why I stopped listing there.”
What I would like to know is what is ebay doing about buyers like this. This fellow is still running rampant!
TheBrewsNewsOn June 1, 2008 at 7:28 pm Said:
My 2 cents on the issue of Q&A –
I believe the eBay community of buyers and sellers (eBay employees not included in this definition of community) have an expectation that all “things” related to eBay will occur quickly.
For example, when an eBay buyer makes a purchase and pays by paypal they expect almost immediate shipment. eBay sellers have been conditionned by buyers to answer questions quickly and to ship quickly or to expect a very unhappy eBay buyer. Quick to the point of almost being instant communication and instant shipment. And, of course, eBay recommends to sellers that they should answer emails 7 days a week and to ship as soon as payment is received but in no case take longer than 7 days to ship.
Just as eBay sellers expect to service their customers quickly, they have an expectation that eBay employees will act in the same manner as most other community members – quickly. But, for whatever reason, it doesn’t happen. Perhaps the question isn’t considered important enough to answer or there are other higher priorities that take precedence so that an answer comes several days or weeks later or by the time the answer is received the issue is already resolved. Or, perhaps, we ask such thought-provoking questions that eBay has to go through a complete and thorough (time-consuming) self-analysis before answering. :)
Featured Plus is still in existence because eBay is making money with it. Why should eBay stop offering a feature to an uninformed seller who chooses to pay for a service that doesn’t provide results? The feature is optional. Bottom line is (1) there are lots of uninformed sellers and eBay doesn’t do a good job of putting the information about there — it’s almost like an Easter Egg Hunt every day just to find out information about changes, technical problems, etc. and (2) there are lots of optional eBay services that provide little or no actual results. It is our choice to pay for these optional services or not.
Just for clarification – this post so far has consisted of my feelings and opinions. There is no expecation that a response will be forthcoming relating to this post since no question was asked.
I do, however, have several unanswered questions below:
QUESTION: Why did the Best Match Criteria for More exposure raise from the 4.6 that was originally announced to the current 4.7 now being advertised and when had eBay planned on telling us that they had changed their mind?
QUESTION: For the new policy regarding identical listings, is a “result-set” defined as the entire results returned or the results shown on one page? This definition makes a huge difference for niche sellers. Powerseller reps and Griff disagree on the definition so there is conflicting information being put out.
QUESTION: Why do we not have access to information about the number of people who have left a DSR rating of “1″ or “2″ for us? Buyers leave these DSR ratings anonymously and anyone leaving a low DSR rating is defined as an unhappy buyer which is used in the measurement to calculate Seller NonPerformance and Buyer Satisfaction (which determines Best Match rankings via Search Standings). If we do not have information about the number of unhappy buyers who are anonymously reporting their unhappiness to eBay, how is that considered to be transparent reporting by eBay?
DakotaOn June 1, 2008 at 8:57 pm Said:
It has been said oodles of times in previous threads, that there is no seller protection and it has been shown that many sellers are taking hits and it appears eBay doesn’t care in many instances.
What is eBay doing about that and what are tools is eBay going to provide. So far, it appears that we are on our own.
DawnOn June 1, 2008 at 10:13 pm Said:
Okay, I’m a night owl, and I have some free time right now. So, I’ll try to help. Here are questions that have been asked, but not answered:
….
I have called the call in shows 3 times and the calls wound up disconected while I was speaking 3 times. Accident or purposely done ?
Even though the feedback arena has shifted drastically, would there be any way to put some professional language standards in place?
I view phone support for ALL users as an investment that Ebay would be making to themselves. Wouldn’t a phone run more smoothly than emails?
How can ebay expect sellers to make a business plan around a constantly shifting fee structure?
How about telling us about site changes and actually allowing us enough time to adjust BEFORE we find out there’s a problem and don’t have any time to fix it?
Why doesn’t eBay consider making different levels of sellers?
Richard, do you have any of the gory details that would clarify and define the terms of ” a retail experiance ” ?
Will auctions be discouraged or disadvantaged in an effort to deliver a “more retail like experience”?
does eBay have any type of retention program?
What actions does eBay take that shows they miss sellers and buyers that quit?
Richard, how do you feel about the upcoming Boycott on May 1st “and beyond”?
WHY does eBay publicly state that neither they themselves, nor the administrators of eBay’s public discussion boards (Live World), engage in censorship of the discussion boards when one or both in fact does?
Why not ID verify buyers?
WHAT IS BEING DONE-(WHICH SHOULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN DONE – OR JUST LEFT ALONE) TO PREVENT SHILL BIDDING- AND DISHONEST SELLERS FROM PARTICIPATING IN SUCH ACTS?
Why are buyers not vetted like sellers have to be?
Why not leave buyers ID’s open and honest … and STOP SCO’s?
In researching your cross border trade post can you look into the new ‘enhanced visibility’ options starting next month?
….
These questions were taken from just the earliest five headlines on this blog. I tried to refrain from quoting questions that were subjective, or that required conjecture to answer. That being said, I think my biggest concern is that you have apparently decided not to do more than pass on the eBay speak you are fed.
In your early replies, you not only expressed your personal opinions, but you also pledged to share your opinions in the future. You also said, you would “provide {your} take on things, too.” But you haven’t, despite repeated requests. Why is this? Why have you decided to go against everything you said in the early days of this blog, and refuse to just tell us what you think about what we’re saying here? Sure, we’d love some real answers to these numerous questions that are being ignored. But, I think we all understand you don’t have the answers, and you’re having a hard time getting them from those that do. So why not give us “your take” on these issues, as you promised to do, while waiting for the folks that know to answer your emails/phone calls, or make time for an interview?
You’re right that many of the posts here are devoid of questions. Have you considered that we may have resorted to venting because we are not getting the input from eBay employees that would facilitate an actual dialog?
Patricia1On June 1, 2008 at 11:15 pm Said:
Well said Dawn…now this night owl is headed for the feather ball.
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