The F-word…

Kevin_TOn 05.02.2008 at 2:34 am Said:

@ Sandi

I was not aware of neutrals being calcultated into (and reducing) the feedback percentage that is shown to the public when considering placing a bid.

QUOTE: “Neutrals have been counting 6.333 negative for purposes of determing seller performance for a year now. It has been stated as such at various times on the ebay announcement board.”

Is seller performance a public figure? Do you really feel that ALL neutrals should reduce feedback percentages when bidders are considering buying?

Sorry to be a year late on this.
Kevin

SandiOn 05.02.2008 at 3:20 am Said:

@Kevin, it does not reduce the public feedback score, it is used in the never clearly defined ebay’s seller non-performance formula for restrictions.

They rolled that gem out last spring. You get no warning, just one day they send you an email telling you you are restricted, period.

Back then it was some vague formula calculated over a 45 day period, using neg & neutral feedback, INR, SNAD disputes filed - does not matter if any are accurate either - how so very ebay. 5% dissatisfied buyer is the benchmark for “punishment”.

From what I have read lately, they are adjusting the 45 day thing to 30 days.

My gripe is how ebay has failed to reword the explanation of neutral feedback in their help pages. Buyers are not aware of how neutrals are viewed. go to the answer center and you can see daily posts from a buyer who thought neutral meant everything was fine, not bad, not great.

My second gripe about this is there is literally no recourse for a seller. ebay has made a buyer’s feedback fact, it’s no longer merely an unverified opinion.

Disputes as Colin Rule has stated repeatedly often happen because of misunderstandings and INR disputes are usually caused because a buyer files TOO QUICKLY. So if a buyer files an INR 3 days after payment, ebay dings the seller.

The announcements covered most of this, in Jan, the official statement was:

“While the vast majority of eBay sellers do the right thing, a relatively few sellers create a high percentage of dissatisfied customers. At eBay, we consider a buyer dissatisfied if:

The buyer leaves a 1 or 2 DSR rating on any of the attributes

A seller get complaints from buyers about items being “significantly not as described” or “item not received”

A seller receives negative or neutral feedback from the buyer.

If a seller has any of these activities in the last 30 days, these will cumulatively count as dissatisfied customers for that seller. We then calculate what percentage dissatisfied customers represent of a seller’s total customers.”

The woman who is in charge of the marketplace and someone else specifically stated the 6.33 in some other announcement, I did not dig for it, but a search on the feedback answer center will produce a link to it.

Ebay can not say they protect sellers. Last spring I was restricted for 2 weeks on the seller non-performance “policy”. I had gotten 2 negatives within 7 days of each other, one was from a buyer who did a criminal, fradulent reversal (ebay told me to contact police, but counted the neg against me - paypal had a record of the reversal). The second was from a buyer who let me know her insured item arrived damaged (and refused to photo, let ups pickup or send back to me, simply wanted a refund).

I emailed T&S as instructed, 3 weeks, 2 days later I got a reply telling me feedback had been reviewed and 2 week restriction was appropriate.

That is when I stopped selling anything expensive on ebay. It was bad enough to be ripped off by a buyer for almost 200.00, but then to have ebay punish me on top of that was the last straw.

I did find humor that it took over 3 weeks for ebay to respond to me and give ME tips on customer service though via a canned response.

I had over 800 positives over a 5 year period with no negatives or neutrals until that one week.

MistyOn 05.02.2008 at 3:32 am Said:

@Patricia
Exactly and I am a perfect example of the small seller you mention. If eBay refuses to reconsider I can not and will not expose my business to such hostility.
I do not trust eBay to protect me because in their own words I am not a “Power Seller” they give me no incentive or feeling of belonging or security… as a small seller they treat me as if I am of no value to them… They don’t take into consideration that for over 10 years I had pride in eBay and valued them enough to police their site and sent in reports of violations or that I care what happens to eBay we was a community or so I thought.

permacrisisOn 05.02.2008 at 3:46 am Said:

When isn’t feedback feedback?

When pay isn’t pay.

Because all my industrial surplus was used and sold ‘as-is’, and because I got paid in company checks and money orders, pay for me really was pay. You couldn’t ‘un-pay’ me.

So I, too, left feedback as to how quickly they paid and how clear their shipping info/instructions were. I did so as soon as I was paid.

Well, just like Visa is the card that pays you back, Paypal is the payment system that takes it back, so I don’t blame those who leave FB last. Their money could get yanked by a vengeful buyer at any time.

If sellers felt secure here, and trusted Paypal, then which party left FB first would be a non-issue… and we could then move on to the Best Match noose.

SandiOn 05.02.2008 at 3:56 am Said:

@Ricahrd, if time permits - it is not as critical as my other questions - but that photo caught my eye with the 2007 8X thing.

Take a moment and look at the T&S discussion board last May/June/July 2007 posts. Pay particular attention to what restricted sellers were saying ebay customer reps (and even some of the posts from ebay T&S were telling sellers to do.

Then ask if the fact ebay’s own employees were telling sellers to use whatever resources they had/do whatever they could to convince a buyer to mutually withdraw neg and neutral feedback didn’t play a role in the sudden increase in what ebay is calling retalitory negatives by sellers.

I would also be curious if they actually investigated and verified all the negatives by buyers that ended up with negs were really retalitory.

I have seen plenty of buyers who gave a neg to a seller for no valid reason, or some really bogus reasons, e.g. the buyer who gave a seller a neg because the teapot was smaller than it looked in the photo - even though the dimensions were clearly listed in the listings, or the buyer whose feedback was decided by if he liked the movie he purchased, the neg that sticks in my mind is “Wasn’t as funny as I thought it would be”. That seller did retalite with “I did not write, direct, produce, or act in the movie, I simply sold it”

Another upcoming issue is the elimination of mututal withdrawal. How are they going to handle the newbie buyer who meant to leave a positive and does not know how he hit the neg button by error - don’t believe that happens daily? Go to the feedback answer center.

Granted how they missed the big screen that warns them they are about to leave a negative escapes me, but ebay buyers are made of the general populations which means some are crooks, some are nasty, some can’t read, etc.

Just an observation, ebay needs to be more concerned about the silent majority. I have discovered alot of my reg sellers elsewhere. They thought protesting was futile, they just packed up and moved somewhere else, taking their buyers with them for the most part. The noise comment from Feb or March insulted more than the ones making “noise”.

Bu again, if time is limited during the interview, specifics on how ebay is going to protect sellers is far more important - ask these only if time permits.

Formerly Known As MarikaBooksOn 05.02.2008 at 4:36 am Said:

I would like to know just how Ebay determines that feedback left by sellers is “retaliatory.”

Can they read a seller’s mind? Are sellers emailing Ebay to say, “I left a neg and it was retaliatory so add me to your 8X numbers.”????

This is just one more example of Ebay’s total disrespect for its sellers.

MistyOn 05.02.2008 at 5:29 am Said:

To more specifically answer your questions

As a seller I would leave feedback once the buyer informed me that their package had arrived safely and that they were happy with the transaction and no longer need my service.
As a buyer I would leave feedback as soon as my package arrived if there was a problem I would contact my seller and work out an arrangement that we were both happy with.

I have not left a neg in well over a year

No I do not have a neg saved up for anyone.

I have only ever left 2 negs in 10 years the last neg I left was in 2006 for a non paying bidder.Why because they left me a neg for filing a UPI.

What would I miss about it… not being able to inform other sellers of a problem buyer.

MistyOn 05.02.2008 at 5:45 am Said:

UPI=UID one of these day’s I may get that right

BrendaOn 05.02.2008 at 5:48 am Said:

I have a question.

What steps did Ebay take to educate the users, both buyer and seller during the 3 year period that showed a trend in retalitory feedback?

Were the sellers who practiced this form of coercion corrected by the company during this 3 year period?

Did any body think that by tightening up the etiquette and language standards within the feedback parameters some of the maliciousness could have been avoided?

Is there a rationale for watching stats for 3 years and noticing a less than desirable trend and not addressing the problem in a timely manner?

I’m curious because I had a post in the AC yanked becuase I used an astericked 4 letter word rather vehmently, but have read comments that have been in an individual’s feedback expressing sentiments far more vulgar than my one 4 letter word.

I don’t understand why Ebay was incapable of establishing standards of behavior that needed to be maintained by all members. You guys really dropped the ball here.

With the new feedback criteria will buyers be restricted by any parameters of language usage? Personally I haven’t checked recently to see if any common sense parameters have been applied yet.

Personally as a newish member I see a HUGE disconnect between the various factions of the overall Ebay community, with each faction having their own story AND BY GOD THEY”RE STICKIN’ TO IT!

Every update that Lori Norrington brings up are for the most part aspects that are already in place. I have no way of knowing if she thinks it’s new or if by giving it a spin someone else will.

I see effort but fail to see anything concrete that will actually produce results for all parties involved.

I have heard it stated within the site that the sellers that don’t adapt are very welcome to leave. I fail to see any real effort on the part of Ebay to help retrain the inventory keepers. It is possible to compare the styles of communication by the upper echelon of Ebay to that of the retalitory feedback givers.

I got put through my christening by a nasty power seller and was pre threatened with negative feedback. We had a nasty email feud going for a while. I believe that part of the problem in my particular case was that the seller had a very poor vocabulary and quite honestly didn’t understand me.

For the life of me I fail to understand why no professional standards were implemented within the communication arenas and find myself wondering about the capabilities of the executive level of Ebay.

This concept is a no brainer. It’s in place for employees. The sellers can rant and rave about my sentiments some more. But as representatives of a global presense why were no real standards of behavior ever established? Ebay, you dropped the ball and have now gone on overkill just like a vindictive power seller.

SharonOn 05.02.2008 at 7:08 am Said:

Richard,
1)I hate negatives and leave them only as a last resort or yes, when one is unjustly left for me. I have not left a negative since 2005.

2)When I filed a UID, the NPB never received a negative from me due to my fear of retaliatory feedback from the buyer.

3) No negative saved up due to no selling in protest of the changes Ebay has forced upon us.

4)Have not left a negative in a long time. I have had to bend over backwards several times to satisfy customers but due to neither party wanting a negative, we worked it out.

The retaliatory feedback has been talked about so much. Indeed, I am sure it is used, but have you looked at who is using it the most?

Us reasonable sellers do not want negatives, therefore, I believe most try their best to work things out with their buyers.

I believe most of the retaliatory feedback comes from the large volume sellers who use retaliatory feedback as a means to force mutual withdrawal. They can afford the negatives due to the volume they are selling.

Also, from buyers who bid and don’t pay. Many times if a UID is filed, sellers receive a negative and I have no faith in Ebay’s saying these will be removed if, blah, blah, blah. Many times I have just ate the final value fees if it seems to me like the buyer will give me a negative.

Feedback truly was the last line of defense for sellers. In many situations it forced buyers and sellers to communicate.

It helped sellers to be able to view buyers feedback to determine just who they were dealing with. It alerted other sellers to potential problem buyers. Now with all buyers soon to have perfect feedback, sellers have lost their last defense.

Level playing field? I think not. I have excellent feedback and I am proud of that. I guess I’ll just leave Ebay with my reputation intact because I truly cannot force myself to sell under these circumstances.

And please don’t tell me Ebay will protect me.

EricOn 05.02.2008 at 7:22 am Said:

1) We have always left positive feedback right after we ship the item. I have always believed this policy promotes buyers leaving us more positive feedback. I also believe the benefit of the extra positives out weighs the downside of not leaving a negative.

However if the customer has not paid for an item, I will leave them a negative feedback. Unfortunately this happens because the buyer bought two items from eBay and only meant to buy one. Then the buyer is difficult in the UPI process and sometimes will file a Item Not Received dispute even though they haven’t paid for the item!!!

2) No, we haven’t stopped leaving them and won’t for customers who haven’t paid us.

3) Not really. I leave negative feedback after our communication and the eBay dispute process breaks down.

4) I left my last negative feedback two months ago. I will miss leaving negative feedback when the customer doesn’t pay for an item we have reserved for them for several weeks.

I noticed you glossed over the most important post from Tamebay. Neutral feedback will now be calculated in your positive score. This will remove the powerseller status from thousands of hardworking sellers. Now with the removal of leaving negative or neutral feedback, there is no difference in the effect of a negative or a neutral feedback. A lot of neutral feedback is because the customer expected more than what the description stated. So they don’t feel right in leaving a negative feedback but still leave us neutrals. eBay buyers DO NOT UNDERSTAND LEAVING A NEUTRAL FEEDBACK IS THE SAME AS A NEAGTIVE FEEDBACK with the new changes.

Patricia1On 05.02.2008 at 9:03 am Said:

@ Richard….I had a customer very much like the one you shipped the 300.00 painting to. Mine was also insured - she said it arrived damaged and didn’t want to return it - too much trouble….just refund. I said sure, but if you don’t want to return it then I’ll have to notify the U.S. Postal authorities to investigage before I can refund because if it isn’t damaged and you’re asking for a refund, then you are committing mail fraud. Well….I got the painting back (undamaged) and did refund her money. Not too long afterwards I noticed she was no longer a registered user….so apparently, she was doing this to others as well. I suppose this is one of the buyers ebay wants to protect and enhance their experience…at MY expense? Not in this life…maybe the next! LOL Frankly, I think ebay management needs to grow up - the real world isn’t what they think it is.

Patricia1On 05.02.2008 at 9:10 am Said:

“A lot of neutral feedback is because the customer expected more than what the description stated”

Reminds me of a neutral I got so many years ago. I was selling tatting shuttles (for making lace) brand new, in the box for $1.75 each. Lady left me a neutral and feedback that said “arrived quickly, just as described”. When I questioned her…she said she was pleased with the shuttle but didn’t feel a 1.75 item deserved praise!!!!! We’re supposed to just blindly believe buyers know best? You’re putting OUR reputations on the line for thinking such as this and expecting us to sit back and take it? You’re kidding us now! Like I said, I’m afraid ebay’s troubles are just beginning…as sellers actually experience these wacky new policies (can’t call them anything else) there is going to be a deafening outcry and I foresee a loss of business.

DawnOn 05.02.2008 at 9:33 am Said:

I think we can all give several examples of neutral/negative feedback received from buyers that wasn’t deserved. Like the buyer who left me a neutral that said, “I’m out of town for three weeks”. Or the buyer who left a negative that said, “Super fast shipping, great communication, perfect item”.

Or the buyer who left me a neutral yesterday, May 1st, that said, “ok”. This buyer emailed me and said SHE had misread the listing, and thought something was included, even though I clearly said it was not. I offered a full refund upon return, and she refused. She wanted to keep the item and receive a partial refund of half her purchase price. It was only $7, so I admit I threw money at the situation to make it go away. So, she got exactly what she wanted, and waited until yesterday, May 1st, 93 days after she won the item, to leave neutral feedback.

I think my last example above shows that Mr. Watson has things a bit backwards. I think it’s the buyers who are more likely to be saving up bad feedback until the change goes into effect.

In over 15,000 transactions, I’ve only left a handful (5 or 6) of negatives. But, when they need to be left, they need to be left. I don’t play silly little games, I just leave them.

MistyOn 05.02.2008 at 12:02 pm Said:

I just want to say thank you to those of you questioning things I have not simply because they are issues I have fortunately yet to experience so never would have given them a thought until that became an issue for me. It is nice to know these areas are being addressed by someone who is aware of them so again Thank you!