Thursday, May 1st, 2008

The F-word…

…As in “Feedback” (what were you thinking?).

The pending changes to eBay’s Feedback system have been a topic of much discussion since they were announced earlier this year. Early next week I am sitting down with Brian Burke, Director of Global Feedback Policy, to go over all aspects of the changes coming later this month and am looking forward to posting our Q&A here on Ink.

In the meantime, I must address a very timely post by Chris Dawson over at TameBay. I’m making a direct reference to the post titled, Who Will Leave the Last Neg? for a number of reasons.

Firstly, I had wanted to ask a number of the same questions he asked in his post:
1. What is your policy for negs?
2. Have you stopped leaving them already?
3. Are you one of the sellers who has got a neg saved up to leave at the last minute?
4. If you’ve just left your last neg (or are about to) tell us why you left it and what you’ll miss about leaving negs in the future.

Secondly, I thought the resulting discussion in the comments section was even more interesting. One comment in particular caught my eye:

northumbrian Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 10:41 am
we were die hard never leave feedback until its left for us
activists.
though since this was announced
we have on a major id left feedback on payment as an experiment,
which is in effect the same as not being able to leave negative,
we have had no problem with feedback at all
on more than a thousand transactions, despite one or two nutters and problems with delivery
our 100% on the id still intact

so we are not worried at all about this

I heard similar sentiment from some folks I spoke with down in New Orleans last week but must admit that the folks that have been posting to Ink (and emailing me directly), about the feedback changes in particular, have been far less nonchalant.

Look for my conversation with Brian early next week.

Cheers,
RBH

Tagged: brian+burke, buyers, ebay, ecommerce, feedback, Marketplace, sellers

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CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 05.01.2008 at 4:54 pm Said:

Richard,

I came across an interesting thread on the eBay Seller Central forum:
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?threadID=2000543616&start=40

The seller had listed an item for auction and paid extra for a Featured Listing. Shortly before the auction ended, the seller was contacted by the top bidder stating that they were not going to complete the transaction. When the seller told them he would need to report them as a Non-Paying Bidder, this was the bidder’s response:

“You must be an ignorant human being. I am certainly not a lame idiot and its pitiful you have resorted to name calling over 14.00 and some odd cents. I dont think that will break you up. Get over it. Like I said turn me in if you want. It really wont bother me because I dont ever really buy off e-bay anyways. If I am booted off no big deal to me. If I do want to bid in the future I will just get on my other computer that is under a different name or use my fiances e-bay. It really wont affect me if they do boot me off. Grow up and get a life and a real job.”

I find this disturbing for three reasons…

1. Under the new feedback policy, the sellers that have this happen to them will not be able to leave neg feedback for this type of buyer. Does this type of buyer deserve 100% feedback? Is this the type of “buyer” eBay wishes to keep coming back to the site?

2. Even if the seller files a Non-Paying Bidder, the buyer can leave harmful negative feedback and 1 stars for the seller.

3. This is a prime example of how buyers can manipulate and circumvent the blocks and protections sellers use. This buyer know that she can simply create another new id in the future, even if her current id is suspended by eBay.

implogOn 05.01.2008 at 5:00 pm Said:

Please ask Mr. Burke to explain in terms the average eBay user can understand, how the 2004 and 2007 Ratio of Retaliatory feedback numbers shown in the slide above was determined.

Ask him how eBay defines and ascertains that a negative feedback is retaliatory as opposed to justified.

Ebay has always maintained that retaliatory feedback was an unfortunate “battle scar” and took no action nor investigated the negative feedback complaint to see if it was indeed. It intrigues me that now Ebay can use comparative statistics on something they’ve ignored.

Speaking of feedback, did Ms. Norrington get back to you yet on whether non-paying bidders can leave a neg for sellers who have filed an Unpaid Item Dispute against them? Now THAT would be a clear and easily measurable case of retaliatory feedback.

Cheers!

MistyOn 05.01.2008 at 5:11 pm Said:

I wanted to add to this… that in all fairness to buyers the same should be true for non performing sellers.

TheBrewsNewsOn 05.01.2008 at 6:36 pm Said:

Personally, I am not really upset at the idea of not being able to leave negative feedback for an eBay buyer. I am, however, upset by the fact that eBay will be taking away my one and only “early detection” tool. I will no longer be able to tell which eBay buyers are likely to be “good” and which ones are likely to be “bad”. And my ability to be able to warn other sellers about the eBay buyers who chargeback but keep their product, among other things, will be gone.

It’s like going to the grocery store and having to choose an apple to eat — from experience I know that those apples with lots of brown bruised spots are more likely not to taste good. So I would avoid the bad apples whenever possible.

The point that I have made over and over and over again is that I don’t every have to worry about what an Amazon buyer’s feedback looks like. I NEVER worry about an Amazon buyer because ALL of the apples in the Amazon bushel are good ones. Amazon does the work of removing the brown bruised apples before they present the bushel to me.

Richard, you ask four questions about feedback but the answers are all irrelevant. eBay will not reconsider its upcoming policy change so “resistance is futile”. Discussing the upcoming feedback changes is only pouring salt into an open wound. Also, the specific questions asked border on insulting. How can we have a serious discussion about the negative feedback we are “saving up to leave”? Any serious eBay seller is too busy providing good customer service and those of us who depend on mail-order sales to pay our mortgage are much more concerned about the monetary implications of the upcoming changes rather than our ability to emotionally cripple a buyer with that pent-up negative feedback we have been “saving up”.

I am not emotionally “passionate” about my upcoming inability to leave negative feedback for an eBay buyer. I am, however, seriously passionate about the money I have to earn to support my family. When eBay continues to create policy changes that provide a safehaven for bruised and rotten apples then they are reducing the amount of money I can actually take home after a hard day’s work on eBay — after paying eBay fees, Paypal fees and periodically giving away free product through unprotected PayPal chargebacks there simply isn’t much left over at the end of the day.

I feel like someone who has lived in the same house for 10 years and who has been watching my neighborhood decay. We used to have a wonderful neighborhood, complete with a Neighborhood Watch group, and it’s sad to look at pictures of how things “used to be”. Our family is slowing packing up all our belongings as we check out the good schools in other neighborhoods to decide where we will move to and eventually end up settling in. We don’t want to move but the neighborhood we live in is becoming unsightly (yards not being mowed, parties all night with broken beer bottles thrown in our yard, very noisy neighbors, etc) and the schools in the neighborhood aren’t meeting the needs of our children. The house we live in is no longer one I want to call home. Despite all the problems, I was really reluctant to leave because even though the neighborhood is in decline there has been some, but not too much, crime thus far. But the crime has been steadily increasing. And we recently received notification in the mail at the end of January telling us that beginning May 19th the police will no longer be patrolling our neighborhood. They tell us that all residents of our city are good and that if the police came to arrest anyone caught robbing our homes and that crime were reported in the newspaper then it might send a bad message to others who might want to relocate here. Now while I can’t pick up my family and move all our belongings overnight, the minute I received that notice I have been researching other neighborhoods and have found some good ones where I wouldn’t mind setting up a new home. I know that moving is time-consuming and expensive and there is some apprehension involved but the future has never looked better. I don’t even mind, as much, pulling into the driveway where I currently reside because I know that it is only temporary.

I know it will take me a little while to get settled comfortably into the new place but from what I understand I won’t be too homesick… several of my current neighbors are actually moving out of the old neighborhood, too, and will be relocating in the same new neighborhood where I am going.

The only “F” word I want to spend time discussing is the “Future”.

HenriettaOn 05.01.2008 at 8:05 pm Said:

I couldn’t agree more with thebrewsnews. I am two years ahead of him because I built my website after the SIS fiasco in 06. eBay has been a customer farm for me ever since.

With an average of four purchases per unique buyer on eBay, keeping their loyalty on the website is effortless.

As I have stated repeatedly, ban automated feedback programs and eBay solves the majority of the problem.

Patricia1On 05.01.2008 at 8:13 pm Said:

Ebay management says they’re listening but they don’t want to hear anything other than what they want to do - so what’s the point in discussing it? I think 90 percent of sellers do not like the feedback change and the stringent DSR’s - does it matter - no! Are they listening - NO! So, disillusioned sellers will get burned and leave - same thing that ebay says is what happens to buyers who get negatives - they get hurt and leave. These new policies are a no-win situation but ebay will have to get hurt by them before they’d consider changing course. One thing I wish they would think about….sellers will NOT simply accept this and life will go on as usual. The majority of them are out beating the bushes for new venues and sooner or later they’ll get their wish.

Patricia1On 05.01.2008 at 8:15 pm Said:

I have a website that has been running continuously since 1996. One thing that is a must with any purchases that go out - regardless of where the purchase was made - I put a nice card in there offering free shipping off my website Works like a charm.

MistyOn 05.01.2008 at 9:21 pm Said:

If eBay plans to keep the level playing field they talk about then proposed changes will have to be reconsidered and that includes a level feedback system which is why I said what I did above, the punishments lined up to coincide with the DSR and feedback are an insult to say the very least and gives no incentive which is I believe the opposite of what eBay is claiming to try to achieve… remove the problem sellers and buyers those that commit fraud, scams, extortion, fakes etc.. settle the issue of NPB and NPS once and for all as suggested above… most negative feedback is a direct result of these problems.
I honestly believe most good sellers are not in waiting to give negative feedback. As TheBrewsNews mentioned above good sellers want this security as a last resort to warn other sellers and it leaves a trail exposing these bad members. why would eBay want to take this security away leaving the site vulnerable?
If they want to do away with the feedback for sellers then do away with it for buyers as well and remove the problem members to make it a safe and secure site to do business on.

Kevin_TOn 05.01.2008 at 10:52 pm Said:

A week or two ago ebaydeveloper.typepad.com site announced “We will base the Positive Feedback Percentage on the past 12 months of activity (and include neutral Feedback in the calculation)”

I note the entire announcement has been removed from where it was, so it may have changed.

(A) Is the above quote still accurate for the changes coming?

(B) If so, why are neutrals NOW going to count as negatives?
Neutrals are not Negatives or positives. Once the fear of retalliatory feedback is removed, neutrals are even less associated with negatives. I could understand it at a time when there was a fear of retaliatory feedback, but that fear has now been removed. I have left neutrals where I feel that neither a neg nor a positive was warranted, and I suspect that many buyers look on neutrals as being a place to leave a valid comment without affecting a sellers feedback rating.

As an example should something to the effect of “Brilliant Packing, but Post Office Truck ran over parcel and smashed item” really bring ruin a sellers reputation when they have been praised for their part in a transaction that was ruined by the post office afterwards? There is less reason now than ever before to count neutrals as negatives, counting them that way now has more impact on a seller than ever before, so why is this being considered an appropriate course of action to take?

======
I don’t often leave neg’s, but feel that I should be able to warn other sellers of problems which they may encounter with a problem buyer. A good example would be reversal of payment or cancelling a cheque after the item has been shipped.

I have always disliked the concept of retaliatory feedback, and understand where the problems lie in the feedback system in this area. I don’t like losing my ability to warn others of genuine potential problems though.

Kind Regards, Kevin

Patricia1On 05.01.2008 at 10:57 pm Said:

@ misty - most definitely - sellers are going to feel like the bottom dropped out when they try to sell after this new policy goes into effect. Its a double whammy - 1) they have no protection against that nutcase buyer who comes along every once in awhile…just one of those can get a seller punished needlessly, and 2) when I get a new buyer the first thing I do is look up his feedback and the feedback he’s left others…gives me a darned good indication of whether or not he’s a good buyer. After this goes into effect, sellers will be flying blind…and guess what? The first negative some sellers get is going to hurt them so much they’ll leave ebay and never buy or sell there again. So….what’s the benefit in taking away a seller’s right to give a negative…..NONE! You lose a buyer or you lose a buyer/seller. Either way, you lose!

Patricia1On 05.01.2008 at 11:00 pm Said:

One more thing then I’m off to sleepyland….after this - no matter what the outcome, sellers will never again trust ebay. Sad but true. I know of no other company who has treated their customers in such a manner. Its really one for the books. Word of mouth spreads like wildfire…that’s all I can say on it. Night all.

Cliff AlipertiOn 05.01.2008 at 11:32 pm Said:

1. What is your policy for negs?
After shipment before buyer receives goods. I don’t do it immediately upon payment (unless requested) because it just seems the natural flow through eBay Selling Manager to leave after shipment. I feel the buyer has done his/her part after paying for the item.

2. Have you stopped leaving them already?
Yes, but only because I haven’t had a non-paying customer recently. I only leave for non-payment and only then after filing NPB. If they pay upon that notice they still get a positive, only a neg if they don’t respond and I have to relist. The way I handled the process they wound up with 4-6 weeks to pay me depending upon their past feedback record.

3. Are you one of the sellers who has got a neg saved up to leave at the last minute?
No.

4. If you’ve just left your last neg (or are about to) tell us why you left it and what you’ll miss about leaving negs in the future.
N/A

I’d say I lean about 80-90% towards not caring about this policy change. The small part of me that doesn’t like losing the ability to leave negative feedback for buyers is because:

A)eBay & Feedback have always been more or less synonymous to me. I feel it takes away part of eBay’s identity;

B)When a buyer doesn’t pay right away their negative feedback can be a valuable guide as to how to pursue payment and whether or not I should actually expect payment. Without that guide I’m left thinking there’s a good chance that if they don’t pay right away they won’t pay at all. I’ve been especially vigilant with follow-up invoices to buyers with under 100 feedback who haven’t paid right away. It makes me uncomfortable because I feel like I’m jumping on potentially good customers quick now, but on the other hand I need to know I’m going to get paid.

C) As a buyer, I’ve found the seller’s loss of the ability to neg me a deterrent towards leaving feedback for them at all. Without the policy even in effect, since it’s announcement, I’ve noticed I’ve become very lazy about leaving feedback for sellers. It just doesn’t seem to have any value anymore from a buyer’s perspective. By removing the stick for sellers eBay has taken away the carrot for buyers–why bother leaving feedback?

Even with all of that, I still lean very hard towards thinking it won’t matter in the grand scheme.

I get much more upset about DSR’s.

SandiOn 05.02.2008 at 12:27 am Said:

@Kevin

“(B) If so, why are neutrals NOW going to count as negatives?”

Neutrals have been counting 6.333 negative for purposes of determing seller performance for a year now. It has been stated as such at various times on the ebay announcement board.

@Patricia

You hit the issue deadon - and it’s the core issue ebay has failed to see - and the very issue that will be ebay’s downfall. They have lost trust. They do not protect buyers or sellers ultimately.

It’s also why no one believes the bull about how they will protect sellers when feedback changes are implemented.

Too many broken promises. ebay members have been overlooking the flaws, been forgiving of the lies, but as anyone with a brain knows, everyone has a breaking point, and members have reached theirs -

actually ebay rammed it down our throats.

SandiOn 05.02.2008 at 1:12 am Said:

@Richard:

1. What is your policy for negs?

I have left several, all but 2 for non-paying buyers. 1 was for a buyer who did a fraudulent chargeback.

The other was what ebay would on the surface see as “retaliatory”.

Shipping 300.00 painting, buyer left negative 4 days after delivery confirmation showed it was delivered stating item arrived damaged and useless.

I emailed and said, I am so sorry, it was insured, may I schedule pickup by shipper. Buyer said no, just refund her.

I called and said I am so sorry; this is the first time out of hundreds this has happened. Can buyer take a photo so I can see damage & I will refund in full? Buyer said no, too much work, just refund her.

I call and ask if I can send her everything she needs to ship back to me, box, prepaid shipping label, etc. Buyer says no, and to stop calling her, she just wants a full refund (I have been apologetic and very nice every contact - I sincerely wanted to make it right for her.

I wait 7 days and cool off, leave buyer a negative stating she refused to work with me on resolving issue so I could refund.

Sorry ebay, that woman was impossible - I was fully ready to refund her with just a photo. I don’t know what else I could have done other than simply refunding her based on no evidence of damage - not doing that - ebay can keep her, I will happily leave if those are the terms sellers are expected to operate under.

2. Have you stopped leaving them already?

I stopped selling completely in Feb 2008

3. Are you one of the sellers who have got a neg saved up to leave at the last minute?

No, I left them after I closed UPI disputes, or after I was robbed (oh, that buyer left me a retaliatory neg after I left her hers - it works both ways).

Always professional, e.g. EOA 00/00, file unpaid dispute 00/00, closed fees refunded 00/00 - no payment/communication.

Or: EOA 00/00 Buyer filed chargeback 00/00, kept painting.

I always understood feedback I left reflected on me as much as the other party.

4. If you’ve just left your last neg (or are about to) tell us why you left it and what you’ll miss about leaving negs in the future.

My last neg was in Dec 2007 for a non-paying/no communication buyer. They bid/won and then I never heard from them again.

If I was still willing to sell on ebay, I would regret losing the ability to let other sellers know who a problematic buyer is. Where is the “community”?

Richard, you are new, my biggest complaint on the feedback issue is the non-paying bidder. You know the one who if they mention item not as described, etc ebay says their negatives will stay.

Reality, non-paying bidders are a huge profit center for ebay - they will not admit it - but the facts support this.

Ebay will admit to 6% of all transactions not getting paid for - they acknowledge that number is based on UPI disputes. Not every seller goes through the UPI, some because they do not know it exists, and others do not want inventory to linger unsellable for 2 weeks.

The power seller organization conservatively estimates the actual figure is closer to 10 percent of all ebay transactions never get paid for.

Let’s use a 10.00 item as the example. Let’s use 15 million as the number of transactions daily (it’s close to what powersellersunite state as the listing number of ebay).

15 million, ebay claims a little over 50% sell through rate, let’s be conservative and say 50%. So we have sold 7.5 million - since FVF fees vary for auction and store (buy now higher sell through rate according to ebay). Let’s use 10% as the FVF.

Let’s say seller did not buy any extras while listing other than gallery image (which granted is “free” now). So about a dollar to list, a dollar in FVF. Ebay (not counting paypal) gets 2.00 of the 10.00 - seller is charged instantly when listing ends.

So ebay has made 15 million on those 7.5 million listings - but 10% of the buyers do not pay. That’s 750,000 items that are really not sold, let ebay has charged sellers as if they have.

4% never report to ebay, sellers will probably relist - ebay gets to charge seller again. Ebay gets to pocket 187500×2 right off the bat, and gets to double that if the seller relists and it sells the second time.

Now the other 6%, the seller has to wait 8 days to file an UPI, then has to give the buyer another week to pay - so 2 weeks before he can get issued a credit for the FVF fees only. Ebay says they will refund the second listing fee IF the item sells - but we have a 50% sell through rate - so ebay knows they will only have to do that at most 50% of the time.

Depending on when it all happens during the month, ebay has collected the monies from the seller and gets an interest free loan during the duration - and try getting an actual “refund” from ebay - mission impossible. At most you get a “credit” that will sit there forever unless you list with ebay.

I got charged 3.10 in Feb on my art selling ID - I have not listed in a year. I contacted ebay, got no where, I tried to file a dispute with paypal and was told I can not file a dispute against ebay for charges on my paypal account. That’s a nice little deal for ebay, but totally crappy for the customer.

It is estimated ebay makes 100 million from non-paying buyers. So it is clear they have no interest in actually addressing the issue. The feedback changes simply enhance their position with this lucrative profit center.

Now to add insult to injury, come May 19th, the seller will not be able to leave that non-paying bidder a negative feedback. BUT the real insult is ebay has no set 3 strikes and you are out policy regarding non-paying buyers. It’s subjective, vague and varies. There is NO TRANSPARENCY on what exactly eBay’s actual policy is.

Excuse, call me dense, but explain how THAT is a fair playing field?

And please ask my previous posted questions regarding specifics on what systems ebay has put into place to protect sellers when feedback changes occur. We do not need to hear the same thing over and over, e.g. retaliatory feedbacks have risen, etc. We need concrete, detailed information.

Thank you