PeSA / ECMTA Best Practices “Improving Your eBay DSRs”

NoblespiritOn 04.17.2008 at 7:02 am Said:

Hi Davey,

I completely agree when you say that it would make a great deal of sense for eBay to work with the community on potential changes -> before -> they are rolled out. PESA has been pressing for this since inception. The product would clearly be much more viable and efficient. Until recently, that objective was not entirely clear to eBay corporate. I believe they are finally beginning to implement a new corporate culture, a new corporate attitude which is laying the ground work for management to be more proactive and to react more quickly to the needs of the marketplace. There’s a new management structure assimilatinf information and delegating actionable responsibility in more meaningful ways than ever before. But do they still have a long way to go to get it right? Of course, It’s only barely emerging as we speak. Meg began the process about 2 years ago.

When you and I and every other seller out there started on eBay there were no established business solutions, there were no standardized business models. Many sellers had to spend $100,000’s to develop auction management systems or bounce around from one to another until they found the one that fit their needs and goals. That situation has not changed. And eBay’s systems are still fraught with holes, friction and obstacles. Why? Because of the very nature of how vast and diverse the sheer number of different business models that operate on eBay. There is no standard definition of a reputable seller regardless of size, casual or professional, large or small. It’s clear there needs to be one. It’s clear that the new changes are attempting to find one. Is it here? No, not yet. Will we ever find it? At least we’re further along now than we were on day one.

One thing is also clear. The rest of the eCommerce landscape changes as suddenly as unsympathetically as many sellers feel eBay does. Unless you have control of your business, no matter where you go there are never any guarantees. Even your own website is no guarantee. There are many schools of thought regarding diversity. Although I sell exclusively on eBay, I encourage sellers to find what works for them. I encourage diversity, within your means, as long as it is not viewed as a magic bullet. Some sellers advise ‘going where the buyers are’ other sellers think they never really left, they just want a better place to shop. It’s all the right thing to do, depending how you do it. They key to eCommerce, where ever it takes place, is a reputable seller providing excellent choice, quality product with quality service, in a safe, relaible trading environment. That is the key. All of eCommerce is accelerating at such a phenomonal rate that no single individual or even individual marketplace can understand or cope. That is our shared objective with our marketplace partners, whoever they are. The closer we get to that objective, the more we earn control over our businesses.

Regards,

Joe Cortese

Patricia 1On 04.17.2008 at 8:55 am Said:

“There’s a new management structure assimilatinf information and delegating actionable responsibility in more meaningful ways than ever before. But do they still have a long way to go to get it right? Of course, It’s only barely emerging as we speak. Meg began the process about 2 years ago.”

They have lightyears to go in my estimation. If they lose one good seller because they left that seller wide open to having their reputation ruined - then they are lightyears away! The good sellers are who ebay had better learn to acknowledge before the majority of them goes off to friendlier sites. A good seller will attract the buyers ebay craves - a bad seller will drive them away! Its pretty simple and I have no golden parachute yet I practice this theory in my little business every single day. What I cannot abide is being thrown open to some nutcase buyer who has an axe to grind and figures they’ll take it out on me. Only someone with their head in the clouds would refuse to see this can and will happen. In looking for other venues, I have no recourse - I certainly may have no way to protect myself on Ebay and I’ll get NO respect from ebay as my auctions go down in their listings. I don’t care what ebay’s aim or goal is…this is callous and its WRONG and its WHY sellers are so outraged and its not about to go away any time soon. Its going to fester and grow as this policy is put into place! Nobody, but nobody to a man believes in their heart that ebay will protect sellers or take any real action to protect them no matter how badly a buyer treats them. This is what ebay has to overcome because it is destroying the environment and will get even worse when sellers lose their right to protect themselves. I should have a right - an opportunity, to correct a transaction no matter what the complaint. I’ve done so in the past which is why my record is clean and why I have more than double total feedback because of returning customers. I will NOT have that opportunity in the future! If you or ebay think that’s not a big deal - its the biggest deal that ebay has ever laid on us! Ebay will never be able to do what a good seller can do to make a customer feel safe and welcome - yet they are beating us to death with this no negative policy! There has to be a different, fairer way to protect buyers without cutting the throats of your best sellers!

BrendaOn 04.17.2008 at 12:41 pm Said:

Patricia 1

It’s called rewriting the parameters of allowable language and antics NOT ALLOWED IN FEEDBACK.

This would have been the logical fix. Establish no nonsense, you will be courteous or die, standards of behavior.

SIMPLE
SIMPLE
SIMPLE.

Other venues have no problem with this.

Patricia 1On 04.17.2008 at 1:27 pm Said:

Brenda - they insist on putting total blame for losing buyers on sellers. In the end they are only losing a lot of good sellers. Good sellers are the very thing that keep buyers coming back! The bad sellers are like roaches - they’ll stay and feed until they’re forcibly ousted. Such a shame!

CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 04.17.2008 at 3:06 pm Said:

@ Brenda

“Other venues have no problem with this.”

With one exception, other venues do not link feedback ratings to listing visibility, held funds, restrictions and/or suspensions. In order to use other sites as a fair comparison, the elements and effects must by equal to one another.

The negative effects to sellers, as a result of the recent feedback change, are not equivalent to any other site.

DaveyOn 04.17.2008 at 3:37 pm Said:

Here’s another exposure of the “partnership” eBay has extended to us in the form or persistent software bugs:

The Paypal Notes glitch is still ongoing with no end in sight other than “we’re working on it.” Meanwhile the mantra is an improved buyer experience. If the buyers can’t get their order notes through to the sellers, how can those notes be read? The capability used to work, but all of a sudden it quit, which doesn’t say much for eBay’s regressive testing regime.

What does this say about the quality of partnership, or even services rendered? Well, for one, this malfunction was never a system announcement I saw–I learned it from a customer who asked why I did not follow his note. I understand other sellers who encourage use of notes for custom color selection or whatever have had even a bigger problem. Then, the community is not being kept up-to-date on the plans or dates for a fix, nor are the buyers warned in the interim that when they enter a note, it won’t be seen by the seller, so they are wasting their time. The seller takes the heat for a note that doesn’t appear, of course, and is left to educate the buyer once again for an eBay-induced problem.

There are a host of other bugs that are known, some for over a year, that have no promise for a fix. “We’re working on it” is not a partner response.

NoblespiritOn 04.18.2008 at 7:25 am Said:

Hello crunchypostinggoodness,

YOUR QUOTE:

“Quote: “eBay Trust & Safety does not have a full understanding of the practical application of many of the dymanics at work without the help of sellers.”

The problem is that even when sellers voice their opinions and problems regarding changes eBay plans to initiate, or has already blindly initiated, it appears such advice falls upon deaf ears. If eBay really needs the input of its sellers to make informed and accurate decisions, then it needs to ask for input prior to enacting such policies. eBay’s routine of instituting policy changes and then tweaking as problems occur is not a rational or trustworthy process for sellers to rely on. While ebay is tweaking its fumbling changes, the sellers are incurring negative impacts of their business. I do not appreciate my business and livelihood being used as a “test subject” for eBay’s changes backed with no actual facts and experience. It simply does not make good business sense.”

—-agreed!

—

YOUR QUOTE:

“Quote: “Once the marketplace establishes a definition of a reputable seller, it will then be ready to message that to the world. However, the message must be a positive one; and, yes…it must be earned.”

The problem that eBay faces is not due to the sellers, it is due to the lack of trust users have for eBay as a site and in its management. Amazon faces the same situation that eBay does, however the difference is that users trust that site because they believe in Amazon’s management, policies, and procedures. That is how my sales are able to be so high over there, not because people necessarily trust me as a seller, but because they know their purchase is protected by Amazon. As a seller, I have no problem selling there because I know that Amazon will protect me as a seller. The issue is trust in the site - not in who uses it. As a business owner and consumer I do not have faith in eBay’s ability to protect the buyers nor the sellers which use the site. It implements polices, but fails to research the issues fully and then make accurate decisions on a case by case basis. That responsibility falls squarely on eBay - not the users.”

—agreed! and disagree….

Yes, it is absolutely incumbent upon the marketplace to establish and manage a safe, reliable trading environment. And it has been a considerable failing of eBay in the past to define and message that safe environment. In many respects eBay is still a wild west scenario where all manner substandard behavior is permitted. Through PESA’s efforts, we hope that eBay will soon understand that bad buyer behavior is as harmful to the marketplace as bad seller behavior. And it will be eBay’s duty to protect reputable seller reputations and hence the marketplace itself from such behavior. However, I disagree that is is the sole responsibility of the marketplace to establish trust. At Noblespirit, although I have personally worked to convince eBay to advantage good performing, reputable sellers, we are specifically disadvantaged in the new search algorithims for several reasons. Our listings are specifically suffering. Our business is hurting even though I feel it is the best thing for the marketplace. It’s almost as though everything I have done to help other sellers and the marketplace has shot me squarely in the foot. The only protection I have is that we have established a very strong brand and reputation. Our customers actively seek us out because they have come to rely on the choice, quality and service we provide. We create exciting sales that people look forward to and want to be a part of. No marketplace can or should be expected to do that for us, sellers must do that for themselves. That (reputation) is their protection no matter where or what they sell, how much or how little. We must continue to press eBay to allow sellers to build their brands and reputations.

—

YOUR QUOTE:

“It is very simple. I am in the business to make money and to grow my business, not hand hold a corporation as it tries to find its place in the e-commerce community again. If a site does not provide my business with the proper, professional environment to further grow, then I leave that site in pursuit of one that will. eBay is a service and not a partner. I do not owe it any loyalty or consideration while it figures itself out. That is why so many professional sellers have chosen to leave eBay. ”

—agreed…and disagree…

Yes, we have a choice to isolate ourselves or remain ebngaged to the extent that we can influence that shapes and molds the environment we wish to operate in. I would love to see you join me and PESA in helping to influence, and mold eBay into a better place. We have made enormous strides in just 4 years and there is certainly more to do.

———–

I hope we can keep talking, thank you for this excellent conversation.

Regards,

Joe Cortese

DawnOn 04.18.2008 at 9:02 am Said:

@Davey

I totally agree with your opinion about the notes issue, as far as communication with sellers about the change. However, the notes are accessible; they are just in a different spot. If you click the “View Order Details” link within a sold listing, there will be a note link there, if the buyer has entered one. I hope this helps.

implogOn 04.18.2008 at 9:15 am Said:

@ Noblespirit

You wrote:

“Through PESA’s efforts, we hope that eBay will soon understand that bad buyer behavior is as harmful to the marketplace as bad seller behavior.”

They understand.

Why do you think eBay is increasing the number of buyers eBay sellers can place on their Blocked Bidder List? Why do you think the Blocked Bidder List has been in place for years?

Ebay has understood “bad buyer behavior” for some time. Yet these “bad buyers’ will soon determine, unchallenged, if I and all other sellers are a “reputable seller” in the “marketplace”.

Sheer madness.

Patricia 1On 04.18.2008 at 10:36 am Said:

“Through PESA’s efforts, we hope that eBay will soon understand that bad buyer behavior is as harmful to the marketplace as bad seller behavior. And it will be eBay’s duty to protect reputable seller reputations and hence the marketplace itself from such behavior”

This has been stated in so many ways by so many sellers…AND even by a few good buyers who see the problem and are concerned that their favorite sellers will be damaged and leave. Ebay’s deafness in this area is will hurt them more than anything else. As I said before, everyone to a man knows that ebay won’t “protect” sellers from bad buyers. True, that IS why they increased the size of a seller’s BBL - whats the good of blocking a bad buyer after the damage has been done? This thinking on their part is so unprofessional - for their own revenue as well as the sellers! It just makes NO sense. This lack of respect for sellers is what is driving good sellers into testing other venues and every sale they make somewhere else is a sale taken right out of ebay’s pocket

NoblespiritOn 04.18.2008 at 10:52 am Said:

Hello implog,

YOUR QUOTE: “Ebay has understood “bad buyer behavior” for some time. Yet these “bad buyers’ will soon determine, unchallenged, if I and all other sellers are a “reputable seller” in the “marketplace”.”

Yes, that’s precisely the point. We understand that eBay does not want to be in a position ‘arbitrate’ negative feedback. And yet, sellers are going to require assurances that they will be protected from more than just competitive interference. Reputation is hard earned and precious.

Regards,

Joe Cortese

CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 04.18.2008 at 11:16 am Said:

@ Noblespirit

First you state, “However, I disagree that is is the sole responsibility of the marketplace to establish trust.” and then you seem to expand upon it in the same paragraph by stating, “We create exciting sales that people look forward to and want to be a part of. No marketplace can or should be expected to do that for us, sellers must do that for themselves. That (reputation) is their protection no matter where or what they sell, how much or how little. We must continue to press eBay to allow sellers to build their brands and reputations.”

In the first part you are discussing trust, and in the second part of the paragraph you are discussing marketing. One has nothing to do with the other. A seller can run sales and promotions, but that will do little to entice buyers who already distrust the selling venue (eBay) that these listings are on.

When I say that it fall upon ebay to establish trust, what I am referring to is the security of its site, and its active role in protecting both buyers and sellers at the same time. A seller can have the very best reputation and still not sell as well as they could on eBay for no other reason than a lot of buyers do not trust eBay. My website analytics show that a considerable amount of the internet searches which find my website purposely minus the word “eBay” from the search results. That tells me, as a seller, that my buyers do not trust eBay, even though they can purchase the items I sell cheaper there. My buyers would rather pay more money to deal with my established reputation as a professional seller, than deal with those they find on eBay.

I do agree that marketing to encourage more sales than the standard quo is the responsibility of the sellers - not ebay. However, if eBay established more trust from its users, such marketing strategies by sellers would be more successful than they currently are.

—-

Quote: “Yes, we have a choice to isolate ourselves or remain ebngaged to the extent that we can influence that shapes and molds the environment we wish to operate in. I would love to see you join me and PESA in helping to influence, and mold eBay into a better place. We have made enormous strides in just 4 years and there is certainly more to do.”

Please understand that choosing not to sell on a venue while it is unstable and unreliable is not isolating oneself. I do care what ebay becomes, as is demonstrated, I hope, by my continued posts on this blog. I am trying to point out the failings eBay currently has in hopes that Richard can help in educating and influencing those with the power to change things at eBay. That is also why I have stopped posting actively on the eBay forums, because posting there does not seem to influence ebay in anyway. In fact, this is the first time that I have ever had any hope that eBay might actually be interested in the input of its users and is willing to take such suggestions into serious consideration. I do not believe one must subject their business to damage in order to actively participate in encouraging any of these changes.

I appreciate your invitation, and in fact I do already receive email notifications of your conferences, under my selling id, although I have never viewed or participated in any of them. I will discuss the invite with my business partner and see what he thinks about participating in them in the future.

DaveyOn 04.18.2008 at 3:24 pm Said:

@Noblespirit

Let me come right out and ask–if you have been working on bringing input to eBay for 4 years, what is any commitment on their part to actually listen to PESA as a mouthpiece? What influence did PESA wield on the recent policy changes, if any?

Patricia 1On 04.18.2008 at 5:53 pm Said:

I don’t see where they are listening to anyone - certainly not sellers - not even Pesa. The decisions they are making are those of people who never sold a thing…probably never even bought a thing off their own site. All I know is since Jan. 29 my faith in ebay has dropped like a rock. You get what you give and when you give disrespect to your customers (the sellers) expect to get the same back. I hope ebay is not expecting any kind of loyalty out of us…they certainly do not deserve any at this point. I see a company who wants an operation like Amazon only because amazon is very profitable. However, ebay will try to do it without safeguards for its customers and without any customer service to speak of. In other words, they want the profits but don’t want to put forth the sweat-equity!

MechelleOn 04.18.2008 at 11:40 pm Said:

@ Brenda

“Why weren’t problems addressed earlier on to give sellers a chance to correct things as needed?”

Which problems are you referring to?

“Why didn’t the sellers police themselves?”

Each person who chooses to rent space from eBay has no obligation beyond following the rules themselves- we shouldn’t have to police the other renters- that is eBay’s job not mine.

“There is accountability that needs to go hand in hand with freedom.”

EBay is not my parent or guardian so their having any influence on my freedom is absurd- and your implication that they should even more so.

“Read through the feedback guidelines and then compare it to the standards of behavior ( I think I found it in ?governance? ) expected of employees interacting within the company. I fail to understand what was so hard about this.”

What is so hard for you to understand that I am not eBay’s employee? Who ever told you that eBay’s customers who pay to rent space and use the “tools” are eBay’s employees? Well we are not.

“As new blood looking in, I see a lot of pots calling a lot of kettles black. Maybe this is one of the causes of the divide.”

Care to elaborate on your perception that I am a pot calling the kettle black?

“It’s called rewriting the parameters of allowable language and antics NOT ALLOWED IN FEEDBACK.
This would have been the logical fix. Establish no nonsense, you will be courteous or die, standards of behavior.
SIMPLE
SIMPLE
SIMPLE.
Other venues have no problem with this.”

Though I find the abusive unprofessional behavior that is so common on the feedback system stupid on the sellers part- it is not what has driven the feedback changes. A policy saying you can’t swear or essentially scream verbal insults to one another on the feedback isn’t going to fix what is wrong with the system. What might have been an easy fix would have been to toss the mutual withdraw out the door and not show feedback until both party‘s have submitted theirs. The “retaliatory feedback” to me looks like a two player power struggle.

Buyer wants something- seller says no- buyer leaves neg or neutral (which is really negative) buyer knows that the seller wants to preserve their feedback so they’ll slam me back in an attempt to get me to remove mine, but I will only do so if I get what I want.

Or

Buyer a bit disappointed completely bypasses the seller goes straight to the feedback board throws out a neutral seller freaks (because a “neutral “ is punitive ) throws out a negative to get the buyer to communicate knowing that some buyers value their feedback too. They work it out - I guess- everything withdrawn.

Or

Buyer not happy (or scamming) they contact the seller with their demands the seller refuses the buyer leaves a negative the seller does the same because what else does the buyer deserve with that type of behavior. Looks like retaliation, but maybe it’s just flat out deserved.

The party with a vested interest in having good feedback is the seller. Yes buyers want a good reputation as well, but for a seller the reputation is what puts food on the table. How many do you truly believe are acting maliciously recognizing that their behavior will cause their son or daughter to not have dinner, clothes for school, or a house to live in?

The answer- how often do you go to your job and tell your boss to F*** off? It’s the same d*** thing - no one who sales on eBay who is in their right mind will deliberately provoke negative or neutral feedback.

Do you think eBay recognizes the power that feedback has over those of us who sale on eBay? Your damn right they do, and they are driving that home right now by throwing us to the wolves unless we play their game of eating shipping, giving endless refunds, hand delivery, and what ever other dumb a** request/demand a buyer throws at us. See how much they care?

So no - sorry, but language boundaries are not the issue and are not going to fix anything in regard to what is motivating the feedback changes. It’s not that

SIMPLE
SIMPLE
SIMPLE