PeSA / ECMTA Best Practices “Improving Your eBay DSRs”

DaveyOn 04.12.2008 at 2:56 pm Said:

Marika,

Even though eBay says we are to be available 24/7 as good sellers, I’m trying to treat Richard according to the Golden Rule. I can wait for answers to my questions. I’d rather he try to get accurate answers within the company as he can get them, and he’s new on board besides. If his experience is anything like ours, getting answers won’t be easy.

I still think what is good for the goose is good for the gander–that every eBay marketplace exec should be required to be a profitable Powerseller in their spare time, with DSRs above 4.6 in order to get their incentive bonuses. I bet a lot of this ivory tower thinking would change if that was the case…

DaveyOn 04.12.2008 at 3:00 pm Said:

We’ve all got to keep in mind that Richard has not seen some of the things we are talking about up-close and personal. Since some of the carp we have endured from eBay is very illogical and is rather unbelievable to the uninitiated, he will need and likely have a few epiphanies coming soon. We’ve got to cut him slack until then.

implogOn 04.12.2008 at 3:55 pm Said:

Some have suggested that along with no listing in May, sellers also stop giving free “site support” on the eBay Discussion Boards. Can you imagine the load that would shift to eBay?

Ebay may even champion the idea as it certainly would make for one hell of a “disruptive innovation”.

Beth CherkowskyOn 04.12.2008 at 5:32 pm Said:

If you stop doing eBay’s jobs for them, they will be forced to hire more people (good for the economy) and spend some of their “acquistion war chest” on “employee acquistion”.

You’ll have more time to list and sell and ship and set up new venues. Making you less dependent on eBay.

I don’t “educate” ebay’s customers for them anymore. They used to be MY customers but since ebay appropriated them, I figure their care and feeding should come from ebay’s budget.

And when it doesn’t?? Ebay will fall under it’s own weight. There is a method to my madness.
Of course I’ll probably die of old age by then but HEY I’ll be able to see it from ebay.heaven

LurchOn 04.13.2008 at 12:26 am Said:

Davey: “How is the current scheme anywhere near objective, given human nature? The buyer has a bad day and I get a 4 instead of a 5…”

I know what you mean, but that’s a bad example, actually. As you know - a 4 could easily be when the buyer is having a good day. No 4 rating is portrayed to the buyer as being a bad rating.

Scott: Thanks for the link to the notes. I found some of this quite interesting, and further reinforces my “huh??” to this conference call, along with some bafflement over the disconnectedness some have:

“Very Accurate Descriptions - Just as eBay has always taught.” This is great advice! I’d say the same. And this could easily equal a 4 in a buyer’s mind, particularly with the info given to them by eBay. And a 4 would actually be viewed as really quite bad, if that was your average. I think it’s fascinating how eBay has redefined ratings. First it was getting folks to think that a 98% feedback is really quite bad. And now, a 4.8 out of 5 is the low end of so-so (keep in mind, that I have a 100% positive feedback since 1996). You might as well make DSRs on a scale of 1-3…

“Ship Very Quickly - Just as eBay has always taught. How much faster can you ship?” - that’s a good question. I ship either same day or next day (*including* Saturdays) from payment. Yeah - how much faster CAN I ship? I mean, I have a 4.9, but how long will it be until THAT is viewed as less than, um, stellar? 4.8 is already bad in one area…

“Say expected shipping time - state plainly what your standard processing time is in each listing.”

This is faulty. There are plenty of examples on and off of eBay to indicate that buyers are not, in fact, rating sellers on their listing, but rather in comparison to other sellers. So in those numerous cases, stating your shipping time will do nothing to help your stars. Only competing against other sellers’ speed might. Might. It would also require buyers to fully read the listing, which doesn’t always happen (ah, I remember the person who bought the vintage lamp kit from us some years back - clear photos of all of the pieces, a scan of the instruction, a lengthy description detailing all parts and tools necessary to build it - bidder wins, pays, receives it, then wants a refund because it is something they have to build).

“Set up customer expectations, then beat them! - If your listing states shipping time averages 10 days and your shipment arrives in 5 days, then your shipping time has exceeded expectations.”

How exactly would one control this? The PO controls it. In fact, eBay has wisely been shifting towards telling buyers that they need to look at how long it takes the seller to ship, not the actual time in transit, as the seller can not control that. This is kind of bad advice. Not sure why it even came up.

“Take control of the message your buyers hear about your DSRs and do not rely upon eBay to educate the public about Detailed Seller Ratings. Educate each and every buyer yourself Create a message which resonates with the buyer and ask for great feedback!”

So if I get this correctly, I am being advised here to explain to buyers that when they get to DSRs, they need to understand that when eBay explains one thing to them, they actually mean another; eg: “When eBay states that a 4 means ‘Accurate,’ they actually mean ‘Not very accurate,’ because if you give me a 4, it will push me down even farther in the rankings which eBay will then use punitively against me. So please, please, please don’t give me a 4.” This is how eBay wants to regain a sense of community? By explaining to buyers that eBay is at best misleading them, followed by essentially groveling?

Further, eBay continues to push to buyers that DSRs are anonymous, yet they sort of have sold that out: “PeSA members get a chance to see what buyers are leaving for feedback DSRs for up to 100 feedbacks. This is a special arrangement with eBay and this information could be very valuable to sellers. For more information about this program write to ”

vs one of the eBay help pages (it’s mentioned in a few places): “…they are anonymous. That means that sellers can’t trace detailed seller ratings back to the buyer who left them.”
—

It would be a little disappointing to me to find that anyone in eBay management, PR, etc positions would find anything from this call to be enlightening. Again, if they weren’t already aware of the issues raised, and some of the fallacies conveyed here, then that just reinforces the disconnect that exists.

Furthermore, if there was no foresight into how having a rating system that tells the raters one thing, but is then viewed by eBay as something actually to the opposite would create fallout, then it would be pretty much the norm. I have seen eBay do this time after time after time over the last 9 or so years, in both policy-making and software releases. And in case I have to spell it out, that fallout is that you have sellers upset about the issue and you ALSO have buyers upset about the issue when they find out. There are buyers who now feel bad (and a bit betrayed at times) that they have left ratings that they thought were positive for sellers, but are now viewed negatively by eBay. They had no idea. I do not know why eBay continues to do this over and over. At times they’ve been more complicated, but more often than not, a simple step back and review of what is being utilized and what its impact will be would uncover these issues *in advance.* This isn’t looking backwards either. I could have told you this from the outset of DSRs if the info was available to me. This isn’t hard stuff. Then again, it might just be a lack of caring on eBay’s end.

LurchOn 04.13.2008 at 1:07 am Said:

As an addition to what I just posted - I just did a little math on my DSR - looks like I only need to sell a couple of more vintage items where the buyer thinks my description was accurate to be knocked down to the lowly bottom 25 percentile. Gosh. Just a couple more buyers thinking I’m accurate, and eBay will think I’m even worse. Go figure that. So going forward, how do I want eBay to look? Yeah, like 1998. Back when you weren’t viewed as a bad seller for being accurate.

BrendaOn 04.13.2008 at 5:09 am Said:

Davey and Marikabooks

I see the lack of Customer Service as Ebay’s largest failing.

If there were less volunteers in the answer centers Ebay would have no other choice but to step up to the plate.

As an Ebay buyer who has long term goals of becoming a seller I appreciate that there is at least an ANSWER CENTER, …
… BUT

I do not like the attitudes that are present within this arena now. I have found that there is a hard core group that, while appearing very knowedgable, are a little too full of themselves. There is continual complaining about the changes that are being put in to place. The corporate bashing serves no useful purpose.

Either answer a question because you sincerely want to help someone or stop posting. Alot of the proposed changes make sense from a business point of view. There needs to be some form of standardization within Ebay. It has grown too large to allow each person to tweak a rule or 2.

On the other side of this coin, Ebay needs to work on how things are communicated. I read through the answer center and there are too many people questioning the policy changes, close to 3 months after their debut. I found that when I would go to areas involving a soon to be policy shift I could find no notations of ” Starting [fill in date] the new policy will be…)

Might I suggest, placing ‘Announcements’ in more prominant positions throughout the site. A person has to be fairly knowedgable of the site to know where to find this. I don’t feel that the average buyer is going to spend a huge amount of time ” learning ” how to buy something. Why should they? Conveniance is a standard that consumers look for. Shouldn’t pertinant information be conveniant?

Why weren’t problems addressed earlier on to give sellers a chance to correct things as needed? This would have been a more respectful approach.
Why didn’t the sellers police themselves? There is accountability that needs to go hand in hand with freedom.

Ebay, you recommend better communications between seller and buyer to minimize potential problems as you raise the standards bar. Not for nuthin’, You might want to practice this also.

As new blood lookong in, I see alot of pots calling alot of kettles black. Maybe this is one of the causes of the divide.

Feedback could have been left alone if anyone had had the common sense to tighten up the language standards. It’s very easy to be nasty without saying an official curse word. Read through the feedback guidelines and then compare it to the standards of behavior ( I think I found it in ?governance? ) expected of employees interacting within the company. I fail to understand what was so hard about this.

Other venues have absolutely no problem requiring respectful behavior.

Customer Service is a MUST! If Ebay wants consistant excellence in buyer experiance,there NEEDS to be a standardized area to get answers and advice from an official source. CONVENIANTLY! This needs to be in place from day 1 of a person joining Ebay as a buyer or a seller. How many of the poor practices might really be bad habits that built up over the course of the users ‘career’ out of ignorance as opposed to malice?

The old addage

DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO doesn’t work.

Real customer service is a tool that can also be utilized to cultivate buyers and sellers.

It is an insult to me to be told that I have to prove myself monetarily before I earn an answer.

An attitude like this does nothing to entice me to do business. My standards are also >95% and part of that is seeing the same standards being applied to all. This is still retail regardless of legal parameters. A dollar is a dollar is a dollar.

Ebay has to earn my trust, NOT the other way around.

Ebay has the larger presense not the seller. The judgments will apply to you. The reputation good or bad will belong to you.

HenriettaOn 04.14.2008 at 9:34 am Said:

I gave my PeSA conference call link to a friend who said he learned nothing new. All the recommendations he has already implemented in the last year. He does free Express Mail on his very upline jewelry and still only has 4.9 on shipping charges.

I went to the workshop Brian Burke gave to digital sellers. I was impressed with Brian. Remaining cool in the face of a minor e-RIOT takes both brains and guts. He was respectful, polite, patient and refused to be baited, responding with humor where appropriate.

To me THIS was the heart of the matter:

Question:
Buyers are confused about the Classified format. Several members have reported that buyers think the listing is closed and the item is no longer available because there is no BUY or BID button. Buyer awareness and the format of the Classified needs improvement. Will eBay address this problem?

Answer:

Great suggestion about us improving buyer awareness of Classified Ads and how they work, until then sellers can help educate their buyers and set appropriate expectations via the listing and when communicating with buyers.

Thanks.

Brian Burke

HATE to keep beating a dead horse but wouldn’t something like that be on your to do list BEFORE implementing such a radical policy? Did it even get thought of?

That entire workshop was slanted to eBook sellers. Nothing helpful for digital embroidery designers, knitting and crochet patterns or any of the other multitudes who are effectively out of business on one weeks notice.

DaveyOn 04.14.2008 at 2:30 pm Said:

Richard,

Are you beginning to see a pattern of how eBay conducts itself, refuses to take care of its customers, makes changes without warning in what looks like a kneejerk reaction that instantly affects the livlihood of thousands of sellers, and then gives us the “educate your buyers” carp to make up for their own shortsightedness and inability to think things out in advance? It looks to us like eBay management is either extremely clueless or in chaos (or both). The level of customer care is certainly around zero…

How many businesses operate this way and stay healthy and in business? Heck, the US government even does better than this.

permacrisisOn 04.14.2008 at 3:07 pm Said:

It’s because of all this doublespeak, that conspiracy theories abound.

DSR’s, wired into search results anyways, are an automated Small Seller removal mechanism. Buyers do Ebay’s dirtywork for them.

It is very important to ebay that our demise appear to have been done by our own hand. That way, the sub-10,000 sellers can be thrown off ebay without invoking antitrust proceedings, or for that matter even official scrutiny. To that end, DSRs are pure genius.

The let-em-hang-emselves approach also gives them time to get their yet-to-be-announced, replacement Marketplace revenue stream ramped up. Meantime, underexposed items pay the freight.

Ebay has a plan, and they’re not telling. Whether it’s gradually charging all those free GM dealer accounts a fee, or buying an ailing Sears Holdings as some rumors allege, or even buying up the top 200 accounts so that ebay themselves can sell, there’s something afoot.

I realize how crazy the above remarks sound. Ebay should be actively debunking them. Whether they are true or not, the important thing is that a LOT of people believe them. Stephanie Tilenius’ remarks about “unrecognizable in 1 yr” certaintly didn’t help, having added fuel to the fire.

I just don’t understand this company. It suffers from Amwayitis.

Patricia 1On 04.14.2008 at 3:33 pm Said:

In my experience and that goes back over 65 years…when someone keeps something under their hat except to let out small “hints” you can bet its going to be something you don’t like. The very fact that ebay is springing things on its sellers one at a time - each one another setback for small sellers - proves that point! They truly do not deserve the company they have…and maybe in the end they’ll pay for it!

JJHOn 04.14.2008 at 4:57 pm Said:

“DSR’s, wired into search results anyways, are an automated Small Seller removal mechanism. Buyers do Ebay’s dirtywork for them.

It is very important to ebay that our demise appear to have been done by our own hand. That way, the sub-10,000 sellers can be thrown off ebay without invoking antitrust proceedings, or for that matter even official scrutiny. To that end, DSRs are pure genius.”

How can you say that? I totally disagree. I am a very small seller. Years ago I was a Powerseller with 100-200 or so sales a month. These days I’ve “grown tired” and can’t keep up the pace, so I do maybe 10-20 sales a month for the extra cash. I’ve not been a Powerseller for years. But even this small seller with 3000+ 100% positive feedback has DSR ratings of 4.8, 4.8, 4.9, 4.8 on values computed since last may. So your statement just doesn’t hold any water. I don’t do anything special. I write simple listings, I take as many pictures as is needed, I communicate with the buyer at all points after the auction, and I pack and ship in 24-48 hours. Sometimes I charge just the postage, sometimes I add extra charges for the packing materials if a special size box or stuffings needs purchasing, and I indicate that fact and cost in the listing. If I can’t send right away, I send an email to the buyer and let them know there’s going to be a delay. I’ve always done it this way, for 10 years. I guess it works.

I don’t particularly like the DSR system, because it’s VERY open to abuse and there’s no accountability to it. A *simple* mistake by a buyer who has absolutely no intention of hurting you can cream you with a wrong or careless click, and there’s NO WAY to rescind it. That’s what I worry about. But even with what it is, I’m proud of those marks, and frankly I don’t see anything changing with my feedback or the DSR’s come May because I haven’t given anyone anything to bitch about. Ever.

Just my opinion.

SandiOn 04.14.2008 at 5:33 pm Said:

“This isn’t hard stuff. Then again, it might just be a lack of caring on eBay’s end.”

Lack of vision and reality as well. Does ebay not know what the average buyer satisfaction rating is for major conventional retailers? The TOP retailer has approx 80% buyer satisfaction, everyone else falls under that.

Now take away all the various seller protections, give buyers full power (plus some with the silly 21 paypal hold thing) as major conventional retailers do. Does ebay think ebay buyers are different than conventional retail buyers?

Next year when 80% is considered a great seller, what new trick will ebay pull out of its bottom? How will they convince buyers that 80% is really good, not to be afraid?

From a business standpoint, ebay seems to be stuck on doing everything wrong.

NoblespiritOn 04.14.2008 at 6:21 pm Said:

Hello CrunchyPostingGoodness,

Your QUOTE:

“eBay can not continue to take more control and protections away from sellers, yet place all the burden of education and implementation on to the sellers. If eBay wants to take more control and regulate its site more closely, then it must also accept the responsibility to actively educate its users on these changes and the impact such actions will have on both the buyer and the seller….The number one question that eBay needs to ask itself is, “What are we doing to actively educate buyers and sellers on the impacts the recent changes will have on one another, and are we sending the same information to both parties?”

I think the spirit of your post speaks to the heart of many of the issues that sellers face in meeting the challenges that these new changes bring. However, I think that, as sellers, we under estimate the control we have over our merchantile destinies and over estimate eBay’s role as a marketplace facilitator.

eBay should be in the communication business. It should strive to establish effective and viable communication at every level. This blog is a laudable example of just one of several ways in which it seems to be embarking on that mission. Until recently eBay Town Hall webinars never had -live- phone Q&A sessions.

eBay should not be in the education business. That would be the wrong business for eBay to be in. Over the last 5 years PESA has been a strong catalyst for positive change. As a collective, we have been pressing hard for eBay to take a strong core centric focus on their business. And yet, we are in the midst of a climate of change that seems to be bringing with it much uncertainty. The sort of uncertainty that is generating a great deal of anxiety among many sellers and probably within eBay itself.

If we, as sellers, were to rely on eBay to deliver the practical experience that only we as sellers can provide then we should prepare ourselves for even more uncertainty. eBay’s new management seems to be painting a canvas entitled, ‘the eBay of the Future’. eBay has huge resources that allow it to do many of the things they do extremely well and better than any of its competitors. This competitive edge is your competitve edge. There are global opportunities on the eBay marketplace that are unavailable anywhere else on any other venue.

Sellers also have huge untapped resources. This DSR conference Call is a mere peek into what can be done with them. This grand eBay vision that management has; and, that sellers hope to be a part of, can only succeed through a specific process. I believe that process is a definitive partnership that both eBay and sellers must be both willing and eager to enter into. That partnership will then become the embodiment of innovation, education and progress for all concerned. Neither can innovate without the other. Neither can educate without the other. There is no progress for one without the other. The ability to proactively influence and create positive change is easier than we often think it is. But, it never gets done alone, it can only be achieved together.

Regards,

Joe Cortese
PESA Founder/Chairman

DaveyOn 04.14.2008 at 10:07 pm Said:

@Noblespirit

What you say is all great and good, but when eBay creates the speedbumps such as dual-standard DSR semantics that REQUIRES education instead of being intuitive to both buyers and sellers (the best solution), and then breezily dumps the responsibility for explaining their actions on sellers, that is plain wrong. So is creating a non-intuitive Classifieds look and feel, for example. EBay is taking away from my resources as a seller that are best focused on more productive things, to instead explain their own site idiosyncracies and policies. If eBay would get back to being a facilitator, that would be great!

Also, you comment on a grand partnership of eBay and sellers. Excuse me, but this partnership has only been unilateral and dictatorial for several years–there is no “together” in eBay’s equation, at least as demonstrated so far. We’re told what we’re going to like, instead of asked. Many of us have tried to submit input only to be greeted by meaningless boilerplate responses and commitments that have not been met. How are my feelings about this supposed to change now, somehow?

Things like this are pigs–I don’t care to have to put lipstick on them for my buyers too. I’d rather be fully invested, as I have been for 10 years, on building relationships with my customers. It is a shame that eBay is not spending time on building relationships with its customers…