PeSA / ECMTA Best Practices “Improving Your eBay DSRs”

DaveyOn April 11, 2008 at 3:17 pm Said:

I really don’t lurk to be one of the first to post, but…

After the world’s worst customer service, DSRs are my #2 beef, with Shipping-related DSRs at the top of the list. Questions I would ask are:

o Why am I left to educate my buyers about eBay’s semantic double-standard and marketplace-imposed hurdles? Isn’t this taking my time away from essential communications and relationship-building with my buyers? How does this double standard make eBaY look to buyers after sellers educate them?

o How does one reconcile catch-22’s in the shipping arena? Specifically, you can get fast or inexpensive, but not both?

o Why would someone giving free shipping not automatically get a 5 for shipping cost?

o What about things horribly out of a cross-border seller’s control, like Customs and transit delays?

o How is the current scheme anywhere near objective, given human nature? The buyer has a bad day and I get a 4 instead of a 5…

o Isn’t there a better way of handling Shipping Time evaluation, such as logging the time between confirmed payment and acceptance by the shipper? Why was this not implemented, as the data already exists?

o Isn’t the grading data eBay is using faulty? Perhaps it really says that eBay sellers were actually doing way above the norm in most of the categories to start out with, but eBay had to cast some as failures, sort of like having a roomful of Nobel laurates and calling the bottom 50 percentile IQ’s idiots?

I know sellers now have to struggle harder than ever. But, I don’t feel it should be because the venue can’t shoot straight or think out implications of their policies beforehand.

In summary, what recently happened to me as a seller:

o Got a 50 percent fee increase, overall, with no new services to show for it

o I get punished for being the equivalent of an “A” rather than “A+” student, and only two of the factors used are really in my control

o I just had my only remaining fraud protection “system” taken away (honest feedback)

These seminars may teach how to squeeze the last drops of blood out of a turnip in the hope you can get some nutrition out of it, but I’d rather not be handed pre-squeezed turnips in the first place…

DaveyOn April 11, 2008 at 3:31 pm Said:

Oh, comments on setting expectations and beating them:

o If I have to beat the expectation on my item description, doesn’t that drive my initial description to be less than accurate so the goods exceed it? Shouldn’t the expectation be that the item exactly matches the description (which would be a DSR of 3 - 4)?

o How the heck can I set an expectation of the shipping time unless I say FedEx 2-day and pay for FedEx Overnight instead? This expectation is a huge joke, as you have almost no control over it as a seller even if you ship same or next day! Or, you can set the bar really low while fighting the eBay shipping calculator which tells buyers the opposite.

Exceeding Communication expectations is about all a seller can do well, reliably. No surprise that most sellers are at a 4.8 or 4.9 DSR here! The areas of hurt are all in Shipping, it seems.

LurchOn April 11, 2008 at 3:32 pm Said:

Um - it sounds like you could have just had that conference call with me. Of course, I would have also brought up the fact that you are utilizing overall percentages of all users to determine the fact that a 4.8 is sort of just ok, and really kind of cruddy (a 4.8!) on item description, but that is based on factoring in brand new items and collectable - well, I already covered this elsewhere.

This took a conference call to figure out? This was news to anyone involved in this call?

DaveyOn April 11, 2008 at 3:40 pm Said:

Did any other eBay management sit in on this call?

If so, what did they think of this theme that you said came up repeatedly:
“What are you doing to keep your customer happy?”

As a seller and therfore eBay’s customer, I’m curious…

LurchOn April 11, 2008 at 3:43 pm Said:

And I don’t mean new collectable - I meant vintage/antique type stuff.

DaveyOn April 11, 2008 at 3:48 pm Said:

@Richard,

I’m about worn out here, and can’t keep beating the same themes over and over again, so I think I may fade back for awhile. At least until your customer service thread. I talked to one rep offline last night, and he had some real interesting philosophical comments on why eBay CS was so poor.

Sorry if the bulletizing I used doesn’t work out. I figured this was better than 10 simpler single-topic posts. If there is any vindictiveness afoot, it may be to vindicate what you are doing here, if it forms a communication vehicle into eBay’s corporate noggin.

I promise I won’t go ad-hominem on anyone here, including yourself.

Thanks for your efforts. Like getting a drink through a firehose, isn’t it?

MsFish213On April 11, 2008 at 4:30 pm Said:

With the DSR’s, BM, sellers having to “educate” their buyers (Now they are OUR customers again),feedback changes,and more, its getting very hard to sell. It has turned into a situation where ebay says “JUMP” and we are supposed to say “HOW HIGH”. Is it really worth it? Not so much, I think.

Patricia 1On April 11, 2008 at 4:56 pm Said:

Ebay is playing totally unfair with the star system. If they are bent on having it at all it needs to be explained to the buyer and not just leave the seller hanging. If I didn’t know any better I would think 4.0 was about right for a transaction where everything went as it should. If the seller put a nice note in with the package or did something above and beyond normal service then I would give a 5.0. I’m sure MOST buyers are thinking the same way, especially when ebay says 4.0 is a satisfactory mark to give and then turns right around a beats the seller with it! If they are intent on instituting these systems that nobody seems to want they should at least play fair with them. That’s about as strongly as I can say it while biting my tongue. I won’t even comment on the shipping time star :-(

Kevin_TOn April 11, 2008 at 8:19 pm Said:

Davey mentions:
“Why would someone giving free shipping not automatically get a 5 for shipping cost?”

===
I ship internationally and after an initial DSR rating of 4.8, I maintain a DSR rating of 4.9 for Shipping and handling charges, in spite of the SYI form warning me that my shipping charges are high for some of the categories that I list in.

I have several times done a search for free shipping, checked the feedback to look at DSR ratings, and check that the seller is offering free shipping on either all or most items that they sell. Incredibly, some who offer free shipping have DSR ratings of 4.8 and even 4.6 for Shipping and handling charges. Without looking into any other aspect of DSR’s this simple test renders them seriously flawed and leaves them totally meaningless to my eye. Meanwhile the way that auctions are sorted in the “best match” search default are partly based on these flawed ratings, and incredibly recent reports (quoted on Tamebay) suggest that a rise in these meaningless figures are helping Ebay’s share price in the stockmarket.

Ebay has based too much on a faux feedback rating which is subjective at best, and can affect the business of a seller on the whims of a malicious or indifferent buyer. I don’t know what the correct method of effective feedback should be, but I don’t believe that the DSR system is it.

Kind Regards, Kevin

Scott @ TradingAssistantJournalOn April 11, 2008 at 9:34 pm Said:

Richard - Have a great weekend!

I too was in on the PESA ECMTA conference call and we streamed the call on Dave White’s eBay & Beyond - Internet Auction News Radio live feed for those members and non PESA ECMTA who could not call in.

I took extensive notes from the call and found it to be informative and interesting.

If you or anyone else here would like to read my notes on the call and DSR’s they can be found here:
PESA ECMTA DSR’s Conference Call - Final Analysis - What Sellers Should Know
http://allbusinessauctions.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/google-pesa-ecmta-dsrs-conference-call-final-analysis-what-sellers-should-know/

CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn April 11, 2008 at 9:45 pm Said:

“Educating the buyer with impeccable messaging and setting their expectations from the beginning seemed to be the biggest call to action to sellers (which echoed a Chatter Blog post back in February). ”

The main problem I have with this is that eBay made the changes to the evaluating of the DSRs, eBay is the one who is conveying a conflicting message to the buyers and sellers, therefor it should fall on eBay to educate the buyer and not shift the responsibility to the seller.

If a seller was to initiate a specific change in one of their policies, then it would stand to reason that it would be up to the seller to educate any buyers on such a change. However, eBay is transforming itself from “just being a venue” into a regulating agency. If a regulating agency makes a policy change, then the burden to educate its users becomes the agency’s responsibility.

eBay can not continue to take more control and protections away from sellers, yet place all the burden of education and implementation on to the sellers. If eBay wants to take more control and regulate its site more closely, then it must also accept the responsibility to actively educate its users on these changes and the impact such actions will have on both the buyer and the seller.

By refusing to properly educate buyers on the effects of the DSRs, eBay is setting up buyers for a more unpleasant buying experience. After all, who wants to buy in an environment where one does not fully understand the rules?

I have seen countless threads on eBay’s Seller Central where sellers have asked why a particular buyer left them a 3 or 4. The response for the buyer was always along the lines of “eBay said that 3 or 4 is accurate and/or good.” When the seller explained to the buyer the actual effect that the dinged star had on their selling status, the buyer response was mostly apologetic and upset that they had inadvertently hurt a seller who they thought was good.

If I was the buyer in such a case, my anger and disappointment would be directed at eBay for misinforming me of the actual effect my 3 or 4 rating would have on the seller. In essence, I would feel that eBay lied to me. That hurts my trust in eBay as a reliable buying venue.

eBay stated when they rolled out all of these changes that they were going to step up to the plate and take a more active role. Instituting various policy changes is not an indication of an active role - accurate education (on eBay’s part) and enforcement is.

The number one question that eBay needs to ask itself is, “What are we doing to actively educate buyers and sellers on the impacts the recent changes will have on one another, and are we sending the same information to both parties?”

DawnOn April 11, 2008 at 10:14 pm Said:

I have a question about the DSR system that might seem a bit simplistic. As I understand it, eBay designed DSRs to be anonymous so buyers could submit honest opinions without fear of retaliatory feedback. Since sellers will no longer be able to leave less than positive feedback for buyers, what is the reasoning behind continuing to keep DSR ratings anonymous?

We sellers must blindly trust eBay’s calculations of our DSR ratings, which are tied to vital aspects of our operation such as fee discounts and search placement. Yet, as it has been expressed quite clearly here, eBay has proven itself untrustworthy over and over again.

In my opinion, this aspect of the DSR system should be addressed before we even begin to tackle the fact that eBay has created a mess, as evidenced by the “challenges” mentioned in the OP, and has placed the burden of cleaning up that mess squarely on the shoulders of its sellers.

DawnOn April 11, 2008 at 10:53 pm Said:

Richard said:

“nothing like homework going into the weekend”

There’s a small taste of what it’s like to be a professional eBay seller. We don’t get to take weekends off, either. I once ended up with a negative and a non-paying bidder because no one answered the phone at 7:30 on a Saturday morning to take a credit card payment. My return call at 8:00 that same Saturday morning wasn’t good enough.

If I’m awake, I’m working. If you’re going to truly try to understand what it’s like to sell on eBay full-time, you’ll do well to realize that’s the norm for us, and to refrain from making snide remarks about someone asking too many questions on a Friday afternoon.

WII SELLEROn April 12, 2008 at 12:17 am Said:

DSR’s are a joke.

If everyone requires their customers to leave 5’s, and everyone ends up with 4.6 or higher that is only skewing the bell curve even more which will further punish sellers.

Can we get some data on DSR’s on a transactional level (ie take all the transactions then divide that and see what the average DSR is?) I bet your ‘bell curve’ comes out alot different.

I find it funny that ebay/paypal bugs are 50% of my problem transactions and ebay’s lack of customer support is appalling.

If you want S&H lowered, LOWER YOUR FEES EBAY!!

Formerly Known As MarikaBooksOn April 12, 2008 at 6:56 am Said:

Davey, since Richard didn’t see fit to answer your questions, I can answer one of them.

You asked:
“Why am I left to educate my buyers about eBay’s semantic double-standard and marketplace-imposed hurdles?”

Because this is what Ebay has always done - USE those of us who have been around awhile to educate the newbies. Pierre created this climate of members doing Ebay’s job and it has, increasingly, become the norm. On the discussion boards, we answer questions and practically give seminars on how to sell. A buyer experiences a poor transaction; Live Help is NO help so they come to long-time members for help and we give it. And on and on and on.

So of course Ebay is asking (the collective) you to educate buyers. It’s your unpaid job. It’s what we’ve always done. Why should Ebay expect less of you now?

DaveyOn April 12, 2008 at 2:56 pm Said:

Marika,

Even though eBay says we are to be available 24/7 as good sellers, I’m trying to treat Richard according to the Golden Rule. I can wait for answers to my questions. I’d rather he try to get accurate answers within the company as he can get them, and he’s new on board besides. If his experience is anything like ours, getting answers won’t be easy.

I still think what is good for the goose is good for the gander–that every eBay marketplace exec should be required to be a profitable Powerseller in their spare time, with DSRs above 4.6 in order to get their incentive bonuses. I bet a lot of this ivory tower thinking would change if that was the case…

DaveyOn April 12, 2008 at 3:00 pm Said:

We’ve all got to keep in mind that Richard has not seen some of the things we are talking about up-close and personal. Since some of the carp we have endured from eBay is very illogical and is rather unbelievable to the uninitiated, he will need and likely have a few epiphanies coming soon. We’ve got to cut him slack until then.

implogOn April 12, 2008 at 3:55 pm Said:

Some have suggested that along with no listing in May, sellers also stop giving free “site support” on the eBay Discussion Boards. Can you imagine the load that would shift to eBay?

Ebay may even champion the idea as it certainly would make for one hell of a “disruptive innovation”.

Beth CherkowskyOn April 12, 2008 at 5:32 pm Said:

If you stop doing eBay’s jobs for them, they will be forced to hire more people (good for the economy) and spend some of their “acquistion war chest” on “employee acquistion”.

You’ll have more time to list and sell and ship and set up new venues. Making you less dependent on eBay.

I don’t “educate” ebay’s customers for them anymore. They used to be MY customers but since ebay appropriated them, I figure their care and feeding should come from ebay’s budget.

And when it doesn’t?? Ebay will fall under it’s own weight. There is a method to my madness.
Of course I’ll probably die of old age by then but HEY I’ll be able to see it from ebay.heaven

LurchOn April 13, 2008 at 12:26 am Said:

Davey: “How is the current scheme anywhere near objective, given human nature? The buyer has a bad day and I get a 4 instead of a 5…”

I know what you mean, but that’s a bad example, actually. As you know - a 4 could easily be when the buyer is having a good day. No 4 rating is portrayed to the buyer as being a bad rating.

Scott: Thanks for the link to the notes. I found some of this quite interesting, and further reinforces my “huh??” to this conference call, along with some bafflement over the disconnectedness some have:

“Very Accurate Descriptions - Just as eBay has always taught.” This is great advice! I’d say the same. And this could easily equal a 4 in a buyer’s mind, particularly with the info given to them by eBay. And a 4 would actually be viewed as really quite bad, if that was your average. I think it’s fascinating how eBay has redefined ratings. First it was getting folks to think that a 98% feedback is really quite bad. And now, a 4.8 out of 5 is the low end of so-so (keep in mind, that I have a 100% positive feedback since 1996). You might as well make DSRs on a scale of 1-3…

“Ship Very Quickly - Just as eBay has always taught. How much faster can you ship?” - that’s a good question. I ship either same day or next day (*including* Saturdays) from payment. Yeah - how much faster CAN I ship? I mean, I have a 4.9, but how long will it be until THAT is viewed as less than, um, stellar? 4.8 is already bad in one area…

“Say expected shipping time - state plainly what your standard processing time is in each listing.”

This is faulty. There are plenty of examples on and off of eBay to indicate that buyers are not, in fact, rating sellers on their listing, but rather in comparison to other sellers. So in those numerous cases, stating your shipping time will do nothing to help your stars. Only competing against other sellers’ speed might. Might. It would also require buyers to fully read the listing, which doesn’t always happen (ah, I remember the person who bought the vintage lamp kit from us some years back - clear photos of all of the pieces, a scan of the instruction, a lengthy description detailing all parts and tools necessary to build it - bidder wins, pays, receives it, then wants a refund because it is something they have to build).

“Set up customer expectations, then beat them! - If your listing states shipping time averages 10 days and your shipment arrives in 5 days, then your shipping time has exceeded expectations.”

How exactly would one control this? The PO controls it. In fact, eBay has wisely been shifting towards telling buyers that they need to look at how long it takes the seller to ship, not the actual time in transit, as the seller can not control that. This is kind of bad advice. Not sure why it even came up.

“Take control of the message your buyers hear about your DSRs and do not rely upon eBay to educate the public about Detailed Seller Ratings. Educate each and every buyer yourself Create a message which resonates with the buyer and ask for great feedback!”

So if I get this correctly, I am being advised here to explain to buyers that when they get to DSRs, they need to understand that when eBay explains one thing to them, they actually mean another; eg: “When eBay states that a 4 means ‘Accurate,’ they actually mean ‘Not very accurate,’ because if you give me a 4, it will push me down even farther in the rankings which eBay will then use punitively against me. So please, please, please don’t give me a 4.” This is how eBay wants to regain a sense of community? By explaining to buyers that eBay is at best misleading them, followed by essentially groveling?

Further, eBay continues to push to buyers that DSRs are anonymous, yet they sort of have sold that out: “PeSA members get a chance to see what buyers are leaving for feedback DSRs for up to 100 feedbacks. This is a special arrangement with eBay and this information could be very valuable to sellers. For more information about this program write to ”

vs one of the eBay help pages (it’s mentioned in a few places): “…they are anonymous. That means that sellers can’t trace detailed seller ratings back to the buyer who left them.”
—

It would be a little disappointing to me to find that anyone in eBay management, PR, etc positions would find anything from this call to be enlightening. Again, if they weren’t already aware of the issues raised, and some of the fallacies conveyed here, then that just reinforces the disconnect that exists.

Furthermore, if there was no foresight into how having a rating system that tells the raters one thing, but is then viewed by eBay as something actually to the opposite would create fallout, then it would be pretty much the norm. I have seen eBay do this time after time after time over the last 9 or so years, in both policy-making and software releases. And in case I have to spell it out, that fallout is that you have sellers upset about the issue and you ALSO have buyers upset about the issue when they find out. There are buyers who now feel bad (and a bit betrayed at times) that they have left ratings that they thought were positive for sellers, but are now viewed negatively by eBay. They had no idea. I do not know why eBay continues to do this over and over. At times they’ve been more complicated, but more often than not, a simple step back and review of what is being utilized and what its impact will be would uncover these issues *in advance.* This isn’t looking backwards either. I could have told you this from the outset of DSRs if the info was available to me. This isn’t hard stuff. Then again, it might just be a lack of caring on eBay’s end.

LurchOn April 13, 2008 at 1:07 am Said:

As an addition to what I just posted - I just did a little math on my DSR - looks like I only need to sell a couple of more vintage items where the buyer thinks my description was accurate to be knocked down to the lowly bottom 25 percentile. Gosh. Just a couple more buyers thinking I’m accurate, and eBay will think I’m even worse. Go figure that. So going forward, how do I want eBay to look? Yeah, like 1998. Back when you weren’t viewed as a bad seller for being accurate.

BrendaOn April 13, 2008 at 5:09 am Said:

Davey and Marikabooks

I see the lack of Customer Service as Ebay’s largest failing.

If there were less volunteers in the answer centers Ebay would have no other choice but to step up to the plate.

As an Ebay buyer who has long term goals of becoming a seller I appreciate that there is at least an ANSWER CENTER, …
… BUT

I do not like the attitudes that are present within this arena now. I have found that there is a hard core group that, while appearing very knowedgable, are a little too full of themselves. There is continual complaining about the changes that are being put in to place. The corporate bashing serves no useful purpose.

Either answer a question because you sincerely want to help someone or stop posting. Alot of the proposed changes make sense from a business point of view. There needs to be some form of standardization within Ebay. It has grown too large to allow each person to tweak a rule or 2.

On the other side of this coin, Ebay needs to work on how things are communicated. I read through the answer center and there are too many people questioning the policy changes, close to 3 months after their debut. I found that when I would go to areas involving a soon to be policy shift I could find no notations of ” Starting [fill in date] the new policy will be…)

Might I suggest, placing ‘Announcements’ in more prominant positions throughout the site. A person has to be fairly knowedgable of the site to know where to find this. I don’t feel that the average buyer is going to spend a huge amount of time ” learning ” how to buy something. Why should they? Conveniance is a standard that consumers look for. Shouldn’t pertinant information be conveniant?

Why weren’t problems addressed earlier on to give sellers a chance to correct things as needed? This would have been a more respectful approach.
Why didn’t the sellers police themselves? There is accountability that needs to go hand in hand with freedom.

Ebay, you recommend better communications between seller and buyer to minimize potential problems as you raise the standards bar. Not for nuthin’, You might want to practice this also.

As new blood lookong in, I see alot of pots calling alot of kettles black. Maybe this is one of the causes of the divide.

Feedback could have been left alone if anyone had had the common sense to tighten up the language standards. It’s very easy to be nasty without saying an official curse word. Read through the feedback guidelines and then compare it to the standards of behavior ( I think I found it in ?governance? ) expected of employees interacting within the company. I fail to understand what was so hard about this.

Other venues have absolutely no problem requiring respectful behavior.

Customer Service is a MUST! If Ebay wants consistant excellence in buyer experiance,there NEEDS to be a standardized area to get answers and advice from an official source. CONVENIANTLY! This needs to be in place from day 1 of a person joining Ebay as a buyer or a seller. How many of the poor practices might really be bad habits that built up over the course of the users ‘career’ out of ignorance as opposed to malice?

The old addage

DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO doesn’t work.

Real customer service is a tool that can also be utilized to cultivate buyers and sellers.

It is an insult to me to be told that I have to prove myself monetarily before I earn an answer.

An attitude like this does nothing to entice me to do business. My standards are also >95% and part of that is seeing the same standards being applied to all. This is still retail regardless of legal parameters. A dollar is a dollar is a dollar.

Ebay has to earn my trust, NOT the other way around.

Ebay has the larger presense not the seller. The judgments will apply to you. The reputation good or bad will belong to you.

HenriettaOn April 14, 2008 at 9:34 am Said:

I gave my PeSA conference call link to a friend who said he learned nothing new. All the recommendations he has already implemented in the last year. He does free Express Mail on his very upline jewelry and still only has 4.9 on shipping charges.

I went to the workshop Brian Burke gave to digital sellers. I was impressed with Brian. Remaining cool in the face of a minor e-RIOT takes both brains and guts. He was respectful, polite, patient and refused to be baited, responding with humor where appropriate.

To me THIS was the heart of the matter:

Question:
Buyers are confused about the Classified format. Several members have reported that buyers think the listing is closed and the item is no longer available because there is no BUY or BID button. Buyer awareness and the format of the Classified needs improvement. Will eBay address this problem?

Answer:

Great suggestion about us improving buyer awareness of Classified Ads and how they work, until then sellers can help educate their buyers and set appropriate expectations via the listing and when communicating with buyers.

Thanks.

Brian Burke

HATE to keep beating a dead horse but wouldn’t something like that be on your to do list BEFORE implementing such a radical policy? Did it even get thought of?

That entire workshop was slanted to eBook sellers. Nothing helpful for digital embroidery designers, knitting and crochet patterns or any of the other multitudes who are effectively out of business on one weeks notice.

DaveyOn April 14, 2008 at 2:30 pm Said:

Richard,

Are you beginning to see a pattern of how eBay conducts itself, refuses to take care of its customers, makes changes without warning in what looks like a kneejerk reaction that instantly affects the livlihood of thousands of sellers, and then gives us the “educate your buyers” carp to make up for their own shortsightedness and inability to think things out in advance? It looks to us like eBay management is either extremely clueless or in chaos (or both). The level of customer care is certainly around zero…

How many businesses operate this way and stay healthy and in business? Heck, the US government even does better than this.

permacrisisOn April 14, 2008 at 3:07 pm Said:

It’s because of all this doublespeak, that conspiracy theories abound.

DSR’s, wired into search results anyways, are an automated Small Seller removal mechanism. Buyers do Ebay’s dirtywork for them.

It is very important to ebay that our demise appear to have been done by our own hand. That way, the sub-10,000 sellers can be thrown off ebay without invoking antitrust proceedings, or for that matter even official scrutiny. To that end, DSRs are pure genius.

The let-em-hang-emselves approach also gives them time to get their yet-to-be-announced, replacement Marketplace revenue stream ramped up. Meantime, underexposed items pay the freight.

Ebay has a plan, and they’re not telling. Whether it’s gradually charging all those free GM dealer accounts a fee, or buying an ailing Sears Holdings as some rumors allege, or even buying up the top 200 accounts so that ebay themselves can sell, there’s something afoot.

I realize how crazy the above remarks sound. Ebay should be actively debunking them. Whether they are true or not, the important thing is that a LOT of people believe them. Stephanie Tilenius’ remarks about “unrecognizable in 1 yr” certaintly didn’t help, having added fuel to the fire.

I just don’t understand this company. It suffers from Amwayitis.

Patricia 1On April 14, 2008 at 3:33 pm Said:

In my experience and that goes back over 65 years…when someone keeps something under their hat except to let out small “hints” you can bet its going to be something you don’t like. The very fact that ebay is springing things on its sellers one at a time - each one another setback for small sellers - proves that point! They truly do not deserve the company they have…and maybe in the end they’ll pay for it!

JJHOn April 14, 2008 at 4:57 pm Said:

“DSR’s, wired into search results anyways, are an automated Small Seller removal mechanism. Buyers do Ebay’s dirtywork for them.

It is very important to ebay that our demise appear to have been done by our own hand. That way, the sub-10,000 sellers can be thrown off ebay without invoking antitrust proceedings, or for that matter even official scrutiny. To that end, DSRs are pure genius.”

How can you say that? I totally disagree. I am a very small seller. Years ago I was a Powerseller with 100-200 or so sales a month. These days I’ve “grown tired” and can’t keep up the pace, so I do maybe 10-20 sales a month for the extra cash. I’ve not been a Powerseller for years. But even this small seller with 3000+ 100% positive feedback has DSR ratings of 4.8, 4.8, 4.9, 4.8 on values computed since last may. So your statement just doesn’t hold any water. I don’t do anything special. I write simple listings, I take as many pictures as is needed, I communicate with the buyer at all points after the auction, and I pack and ship in 24-48 hours. Sometimes I charge just the postage, sometimes I add extra charges for the packing materials if a special size box or stuffings needs purchasing, and I indicate that fact and cost in the listing. If I can’t send right away, I send an email to the buyer and let them know there’s going to be a delay. I’ve always done it this way, for 10 years. I guess it works.

I don’t particularly like the DSR system, because it’s VERY open to abuse and there’s no accountability to it. A *simple* mistake by a buyer who has absolutely no intention of hurting you can cream you with a wrong or careless click, and there’s NO WAY to rescind it. That’s what I worry about. But even with what it is, I’m proud of those marks, and frankly I don’t see anything changing with my feedback or the DSR’s come May because I haven’t given anyone anything to bitch about. Ever.

Just my opinion.

SandiOn April 14, 2008 at 5:33 pm Said:

“This isn’t hard stuff. Then again, it might just be a lack of caring on eBay’s end.”

Lack of vision and reality as well. Does ebay not know what the average buyer satisfaction rating is for major conventional retailers? The TOP retailer has approx 80% buyer satisfaction, everyone else falls under that.

Now take away all the various seller protections, give buyers full power (plus some with the silly 21 paypal hold thing) as major conventional retailers do. Does ebay think ebay buyers are different than conventional retail buyers?

Next year when 80% is considered a great seller, what new trick will ebay pull out of its bottom? How will they convince buyers that 80% is really good, not to be afraid?

From a business standpoint, ebay seems to be stuck on doing everything wrong.

NoblespiritOn April 14, 2008 at 6:21 pm Said:

Hello CrunchyPostingGoodness,

Your QUOTE:

“eBay can not continue to take more control and protections away from sellers, yet place all the burden of education and implementation on to the sellers. If eBay wants to take more control and regulate its site more closely, then it must also accept the responsibility to actively educate its users on these changes and the impact such actions will have on both the buyer and the seller….The number one question that eBay needs to ask itself is, “What are we doing to actively educate buyers and sellers on the impacts the recent changes will have on one another, and are we sending the same information to both parties?”

I think the spirit of your post speaks to the heart of many of the issues that sellers face in meeting the challenges that these new changes bring. However, I think that, as sellers, we under estimate the control we have over our merchantile destinies and over estimate eBay’s role as a marketplace facilitator.

eBay should be in the communication business. It should strive to establish effective and viable communication at every level. This blog is a laudable example of just one of several ways in which it seems to be embarking on that mission. Until recently eBay Town Hall webinars never had -live- phone Q&A sessions.

eBay should not be in the education business. That would be the wrong business for eBay to be in. Over the last 5 years PESA has been a strong catalyst for positive change. As a collective, we have been pressing hard for eBay to take a strong core centric focus on their business. And yet, we are in the midst of a climate of change that seems to be bringing with it much uncertainty. The sort of uncertainty that is generating a great deal of anxiety among many sellers and probably within eBay itself.

If we, as sellers, were to rely on eBay to deliver the practical experience that only we as sellers can provide then we should prepare ourselves for even more uncertainty. eBay’s new management seems to be painting a canvas entitled, ‘the eBay of the Future’. eBay has huge resources that allow it to do many of the things they do extremely well and better than any of its competitors. This competitive edge is your competitve edge. There are global opportunities on the eBay marketplace that are unavailable anywhere else on any other venue.

Sellers also have huge untapped resources. This DSR conference Call is a mere peek into what can be done with them. This grand eBay vision that management has; and, that sellers hope to be a part of, can only succeed through a specific process. I believe that process is a definitive partnership that both eBay and sellers must be both willing and eager to enter into. That partnership will then become the embodiment of innovation, education and progress for all concerned. Neither can innovate without the other. Neither can educate without the other. There is no progress for one without the other. The ability to proactively influence and create positive change is easier than we often think it is. But, it never gets done alone, it can only be achieved together.

Regards,

Joe Cortese
PESA Founder/Chairman

DaveyOn April 14, 2008 at 10:07 pm Said:

@Noblespirit

What you say is all great and good, but when eBay creates the speedbumps such as dual-standard DSR semantics that REQUIRES education instead of being intuitive to both buyers and sellers (the best solution), and then breezily dumps the responsibility for explaining their actions on sellers, that is plain wrong. So is creating a non-intuitive Classifieds look and feel, for example. EBay is taking away from my resources as a seller that are best focused on more productive things, to instead explain their own site idiosyncracies and policies. If eBay would get back to being a facilitator, that would be great!

Also, you comment on a grand partnership of eBay and sellers. Excuse me, but this partnership has only been unilateral and dictatorial for several years–there is no “together” in eBay’s equation, at least as demonstrated so far. We’re told what we’re going to like, instead of asked. Many of us have tried to submit input only to be greeted by meaningless boilerplate responses and commitments that have not been met. How are my feelings about this supposed to change now, somehow?

Things like this are pigs–I don’t care to have to put lipstick on them for my buyers too. I’d rather be fully invested, as I have been for 10 years, on building relationships with my customers. It is a shame that eBay is not spending time on building relationships with its customers…

NoblespiritOn April 15, 2008 at 8:38 am Said:

Hello Davey,

Thank you for the comments. PESA was founded because, (for a long time), there was a huge void between eBay and its seller base. Your comments do echo many of the sentiments that many sellers still feel. These feelings are understandable. eBay sellers are extremely passionate about their eBay businesses. And extremely serious about them. eBay sellers do what they do because it is what they are about. Their eBay business is as much a lifestyle choice as it is a financial business venture. In that sense, eBay sellers have always required a strong mesaure of control in their business. This is as it should be.

However, it is important to commend eBay when they do things right as much as we reserve the right to mention the things they do wrong. We must remember that if it were not for eBay many of us would not even be having this discussion. Many of us would not have a business to fix, adapt, grow, position or maneuver.

Yes, as sellers, we all feel very heavily invested in this marketplace. As you rightfully point out, many of us have been invested for nearly a decade. And I think that simple fact is finally coming to light in what is clearly a new eBay corporate culture. I do see a partnership emerging. I see it all around me. And I see that every seller who takes their business seriously and passionately has a tangible opportunity to become a part of that partnership. Like any partnership, it is going to be a journey of give and take, learning together, growing together, evolving together. Neither of us is there yet. Neither of us can get there by ourselves.

To be frank, I’m reading a lot of comments of what sellers think eBay is doing wrong. What do you think eBay should be doing to make that partnership happen? What do you think we need to do to create a better marketplace? What is your vision of the ‘eBay of The Future’?

Regards,

Joe Cortese

DaveyOn April 15, 2008 at 4:11 pm Said:

@Noblespirit

I’ll give some concrete detailed answers to your market visions questions after I get my taxes filed… Yes, I’m one of the last minute guys…

One comment, though, in case any eBay staffers read this in the meantime, from a seller/buyer point of view (I’m both), is: What has eBay done in the “give and take” that was actually a “give?” Free Gallery was gobbled up by increased FVF in my dutch auctions, so that was a 50 percent “take” in the end. In looking back as a seller whose auctions are priced to sell through, I’m seeing all “takes.” If this relationship is a give and take, I need a few “gives” to establish eBay’s kind intent to partner before I want to step in further. Besides this blog, I don’t see anyone upstairs listening–just talking. This blog has been out for too short a time to see if it makes a difference.

What does eBay need to do to get this partnership to happen? First, place the Community Values as foremost again in guiding the business, like they were when eBay started. Listen and incorporate the intelligence in your own marketplace, not just your own headquarters. Understand the needs of your constituency, and respond to them. Don’t tell your constituency what they really prefer but don’t know it yet. Don’t tell them you “listened,” then proceeed to slap them with all sorts of bad news and fee increases without offering additional benefits that meet or exceed the fees in value. The latter is especially bad when that consitituency sees the profits you are raking in already.

I believe if it weren’t for eBay, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, true. But more powerfully, if it wasn’t for the seller/buyer community, we wouldn’t be hearing about an entity caled eBay, but maybe one of the other initial auction sites that started at the same time. People came to eBay not only because of the unique niche it started in, but because Pierre’s attitude and community values appealed to them, the site was uncluttered and simple, and all these things worked. I didn’t require any education as to the value proposition, an my buyers didn’t require an education of the site’s foibles. Of course, several months of merciless spamming of USENET groups by Pierre helped get the word out too.

I believe there are a lot of people at eBay that are self-confident they understand eCommerce and their marketplace. I would bet, though, that almost all are casual sellers and buyers at best. When you’ve got large and small powersellers griping and things like Deutsche Bank’s somewhat unfavorable analysis (which harmonized with my feelings), there is a disconnect here.

One comment for Ms. Tilenius–impress me not with the fact that you bought shoes on eBay, but that you’re enroute to become a Powerseller with DSRs all above 4.8. That’s an accomplishment that will give you street cred that you know the marketplace. If you can buy here after negotiating Best Match and actually find what you want, that is something, but if you can sell and make a profit, that is something else entirely.

Looking back, the way eBay functioned in 2004 (pre-Cobb?) and prior worked just great–good traffic, good sales, good relationships, sense of community, etc. Things have only declined for me since then, and that is even with fewer competitors in my space. I hear talk about progress, but just like with New Coke, these disruptive innovations are sometimes duds where an astute team steps back and realizes what their market value really was.

While my specific #1 beef with eBay 2008 is the absolutely zero-star customer service, the underlying current remains that management does not listen to their constituency but throws things out to see what sticks, regardless of who gets hurt in the process. This appearance of ignorance is such that many of us are assuming our welcome here is coming to an end, as we don’t appear to fit into the grand plans that we hear are coming.

I’ve got to get some more time to think about your “vision” question…

CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn April 15, 2008 at 9:05 pm Said:

@ Noblespirit
“eBay should not be in the education business. That would be the wrong business for eBay to be in.”

Whenever a venue, service, or business makes a change it falls upon that venue, service, or business to educate its users on the changes and the impacts. eBay has already decided to involve itself in the education of buyers on how to rate sellers using the DSRs. The only problem is that eBay is giving out the wrong instructions to buyers. eBay is telling buyers that a 3 or 4 is good, while informing sellers that such scores will negatively affect their ability to sell successfully on eBay.

eBay is doing buyers a dis-service, especially when the sellers have to inform buyers that eBay is essentially lying about what the ratings really means. Such conflicting information will cause buyers to distrust eBay and/or the sellers on that site.

“There are global opportunities on the eBay marketplace that are unavailable anywhere else on any other venue.”

I beg to differ. In fact it has been my experience that I can sell my wares on a different site, as well as my own website, for more money and higher sell through rate than I ever achieved on eBay. Granted eBay may be the only place where some items may be able to sell well, but most professional sellers have items that will sell successfully and draw traffic regardless of where they sell.

As a business owner my goal is to make as many sales, for as high a dollar amount, with enough ease so that I may direct my efforts into growing my business further. The other site I sell on provides me with all of that. As a smart business owner, why would I care to sell my wares on a site which requires more effort with less profit realized? Furthermore, any successful business requires some security and stability in order to succeed long term. The ever announcing changes eBay is making provides for a very unstable and unpredictable selling environment, neither of which are attractive to business owners.

“I believe that process is a definitive partnership that both eBay and sellers must be both willing and eager to enter into. That partnership will then become the embodiment of innovation, education and progress for all concerned. Neither can innovate without the other. Neither can educate without the other. There is no progress for one without the other.”

The key point here is the word “partnership”. In a partnership the involved parties all have a voice and the ability to discuss and vote on changes before they are placed into action. eBay has made these changes unilaterally, without consulting their partners (sellers). In the manner which eBay has proceeded has not been the role of a partner.

My business is a partnership among myself and my co-owner. All decisions with relevant impact on the business must be discussed prior to any action taken to implement them. All concerns are discussed and evaluated by the involved parties and a general agreement must be reached before such changes are implemented. eBay did no such thing, so as a business owner, I do not see eBay as a partner in my business.

The only way I see eBay is as an unstable selling environment which is trying so hard to cover all e commerce markets, that it is making several severe mistakes along the way. Until eBay can stabilize this uncertainty, something I hope these discussions with Richard will help with, eBay does not appear to be a viable selling venue for my business right, now and I doubt it is for many other professional and hobby sellers alike.

implogOn April 16, 2008 at 6:31 am Said:

Many eBay community members, both buyers and sellers, have attempted to educate bidders on obvious scam auctions, hijacked account high dollar auctions that contain off eBay contact email addresses and auctions of fraudulent items. This education effort is done by using the Discussion boards or by email.

eBay prohibits this education and will “pink slap” or discipline anyone caught educating another member about these immediate dangers.

This may have left a bad taste in the mouths of some community members who are now asked to “educate”.

Richard wrote in another blog post that he almost clicked on an identity “phishing” link he received in an email. This speaks volumes about eBay’s user education both externally and evidently internally.

(Richard - I hope you were joking about almost clicking on the phishing link. Please say you were joking.)

CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn April 16, 2008 at 10:19 am Said:

@ Noblespirit

You asked, “What do you think eBay should be doing to make that partnership happen? What do you think we need to do to create a better marketplace? What is your vision of the ‘eBay of The Future’?”

Frankly, I do not believe eBay should attempt to become a partner at all. eBay is a service. That is all it was ever meant to be and all it should ever try to be. When I purchase web space, I do not wish the provider to be a partner in my business. When I lease a physical space for storage or a store, I do not wish the leaser to be a partner in my business. Lastly when I sell on Amazon, I do wish their site to be a partner in my business either. None of the above examples have ever tried to assert the level of control or power over the operation of my business that eBay is trying to. It is the interference that goes hand in hand with this new idea of “partnership” that sellers are objecting to.

In order to create a better Marketplace, I believe:
* eBay needs to relinquish their new controls.

* eBay needs to start building trust with both sellers and buyers by stepping up personal communications and discard the canned responses.

* eBay needs to educate their own employees on policies and procedures, so that users are not receiving conflicting information from various employees.

* eBay needs to make all ship to addresses confirmed, so that sellers will be protected no matter where the buyer lives and/or the item is shipped to a third party. If they can not do that, then they need to remove the “confirmed address” requirement altogether from the seller protection rules.

* eBay needs to distinguish different levels of sellers based on professional selling ability (within 24 to 48 hours shipping, email ability 24/7, etc.), instead of selling volume. This way buyers will have a choice as to which type of seller they wish to deal with - professional seller or part-time, hobby seller. (I elaborated on this idea further within the Catalyst Conference topic on this blog.)

* eBay needs to allow for full disclosure of the entire buying/selling experience of a particular transaction, by allowing both parties involved to leave positive, neutral, and negative feedback.

* eBay should not link listing visibility, listing fees, funds held, restrictions, and suspensions to feedback comments which are not regulated or validated in any way.

These are just a few of the ways that eBay can create a better market place. First and for most, eBay must re-establish trust with its sellers and buyers simultaneously. Trust must be earned. It can not be coerced from the recent changes eBay is making. eBay needs to prove its ability to manage its site properly , before implementing any more changes which place undue responsibility and hardships on sellers.

This recent “passing the buck” with regards to educating buyers on the true effects of the DSR ratings only serves to create more distrust in eBay’s abilities in the eyes of sellers.

NoblespiritOn April 16, 2008 at 1:57 pm Said:

Hello CrunchyPostingGoodness and Davey,

Thank you for turning this into an interesting discussion. You’ve both made some excellent points which I am eager to respond to. Many of the points you raise are topics that deserve and require more than just a blanket response. I intend to do just that. Since we both agree and disagree, although I’d like to tackle the partnership concept first, perhaps we should work backwards one topic at a time?

QUOTE: “First and for most, eBay must re-establish trust with its sellers and buyers simultaneously. Trust must be earned. It can not be coerced from the recent changes eBay is making. eBay needs to prove its ability to manage its site properly , before implementing any more changes which place undue responsibility and hardships on sellers.

This recent “passing the buck” with regards to educating buyers on the true effects of the DSR ratings only serves to create more distrust in eBay’s abilities in the eyes of sellers.”

I think we have to remember that the objective is to try and strike some sort of balance between an eBay ‘hands off’ policy and a level of eBay involvement that insures a safe trading environment. I don’t think sellers can manage a safe environment on their own. They simply don’t have the facility. This is a marketplace that has been open to gaming buyers, sellers and peripheral scammers of every description.

eBay has sufferd from a lacklustre image for quite some time. I think eBay Trust & Safety take their role very seriously. And I think they have made great strides to be as responsive as possible under what is clearly some considerable adversity. Some scams are so sophisticated that they have folled the most astute, experience users (buyers, sellers, etc). We sellers alone do not have the means to address these issues. eBay Trust & Safety does not have a full understanding of the practical application of many of the dymanics at work without the help of sellers.

Once the marketplace establishes a definition of a reputable seller, it will then be ready to message that to the world. However, the message must be a positive one; and, yes…it must be earned. The problem we face at this time is that this marketplace is so huge we cannot afford to wait for the marketplace to roll out one improvement/change/adjustment at a time. We are seeing a bold endeavor, a suite of components of that definition. I believe this is what was needed. Now the question remains. How do we know this was the right thing to do, the right choices, the right changes, the right execution. Well, we don’t. We’ll need to work trough them together.

I don’t think there was a buck to pass regarding education. eBay can only strive to communicate it’s policy and intent. It’s up to us sellers to educate and inform ourselves and eBay with respect to the expected results, cause and effect, etc through practical experience, trial and error, etc. eBay is highly dependent on sellers to create the necessary tools, resources and knowledge base to execute these changes, it can only induce change. In this sense eBay will always remain a facilitator.

Let’s keep talking about this and all your fine points. I think we’re all going to find this very productive.

Regards,

Joe Cortese

Patricia 1On April 16, 2008 at 2:19 pm Said:

“To be frank, I’m reading a lot of comments of what sellers think eBay is doing wrong. What do you think eBay should be doing to make that partnership happen? What do you think we need to do to create a better marketplace? What is your vision of the ‘eBay of The Future’?”

My mom used to say “money can buy almost anything, but respect has to be earned.” We, Italians, believe a great deal in respect. Ebay has shown the sellers nothing but disrespect. Its new policies treat sellers like criminals and put them under the watchful eye of buyers who can make or break them on a whim! This is so far out in left field that all sellers can do is complain about the wrongs ebay has done and continues to do. Small seller are even more outraged because they see powersellers getting a few benefits everyone should have….like the fee discount for good DSR’s and the Paypal coverage for unconfirmed addresses. There is no doubt we are the poor cousins standing outside and hoping for scraps to be tossed to us. How can anyone expect us to have much good to say about ebay…there isn’t much good since Jan. 29, 2008 whether anyone wants to hear it or not! Its fact!

What do I want to see ebay do? Lower its sights and SEE us little guys in the trenches. I’ve been selling on ebay since 1998 and have a perfect feedback record of several thousands - DSR at 5.0, 5.0, 5.0, 4.9. I lead many many powersellers in total fees paid to ebay and total sales…yet, I’m outside waiting for those scraps - and there are thousands of us in that same situation! I want to see ebay treat us ALL like the CUSTOMERS we are instead of making us feel they simply tolerate us being around! One last thing…as far as sellers are concerned - this is our mad money, our supplemental income our total income….I want ebay to once and for all refrain from calling it “fun”….to us, its “business”!

NoblespiritOn April 16, 2008 at 3:39 pm Said:

Hello Patricia 1,

Don’t you think small sellers have as much of an opportunity to show how good they are at what they do as larger more professional sellers? I think casual sellers are just as advantaged as anyone. I think what we are seeing is a level - unleveling. Everyone has an equal opportunity to show what they’re made of, to show what they’re capable of, to distance themselves equally from their competition. There’s nothing stopping anyone from inventing, re-inventing, incubating or reincubating their business as they once did when they first set foot on eBay. I know a lot of sellers who strive to grow and scale their business. And I know just as many or more who enjoy being just where they are and taking pride in what they do well. If you love what you do here, there isn’t anything more important than that.

Yes, eBay needs to better understand what goes on here in the trenches. I’m in the same trench you’re in, struggling with the same beligerent buyers, unreasonable expectations, an evolving marketplace in a state of constant change, with multiple friction points and a whole host of other challenges. The same challenges we all face, some to a greater degree than others. You certainly have my respect, and not because I’m also Italian, but because your pain is my pain, I share it.

But when eBay corporate sees good sellers migrate on to other marketplaces and buyer demand issues esclate, I believe they have to be appreciated for the pain they also feel in their business in the face of serious mounting competition. I have many issues with eBay, and they’re not exactly overdrawn at the bank. But I have to commend them at their level and work to compel them to appreciate our commitment to what I believe are shared goals. We all want a great marketplace that we can all be proud of. eBay doesn’t get to have that without a strong base of reputable sellers (regardless of size). Neither do we.

Regards,

Joe Cortese

JJHOn April 16, 2008 at 4:04 pm Said:

@Patricia1

Here Here (or is it “Hear Hear”?) Anyway I agree.

Richard, and any ebaY brass who care to read this;

Powersellers shouldn’t be given benefits that ALL are entitled to. You set up a class system that way of “elitists” and “scum”. I fall into the “scum” category, and I don’t like it. I have over 3000 100% positive feedback (3300 total), I have DSR scores which now are 4.8, 4.8, 4.9, 4.8, yet I rate nothing. I worked VERY hard over the years to keep this feedback all positive, and I must be doing something right to have those DSR marks. I must be giving a good “Buyer Experience”, but who cares? You don’t. I don’t make you enough money, so you don’t care about me.

Just because I don’t sell $1000+ a month, I’m not entitled to anything. This mighty company is going to take such a financial hit from small sellers like me who’s total monthly fees average about $25 that a $3.75 discount is going to hurt them? I don’t think so, even when multiplied by thousands.

You want to be my partner, earn my respect? Show some respect. Give me a 5% or 15% discount too. Sure, it’s only PEANUTS, but it’s RECOGNITION.

You know, years ago, maybe around 1999 or 2000, I used to participate in the discussion forums that existed at that time. They were much simpler than those of today. I used drift in and out and answer people’s questions when I saw something I could help with. During this time, at two random points in time, I received an email from an ebay employee whose job it was to monitor the forums. Both of them thanked me for my participation and excellent help in answering questions and gave me a $25 credit applied to my fees. THAT is respect. You know how good it made me feel? THAT is community. THAT is the company Pierre founded, not the greedy one we see today.

Several years later when I reached my red feedback star (1000?) I received a little red star pin and a letter from Meg Whitman (form letter of course) and a silly little certificate marking the occasion and congratulating me for the milestone. AGAIN, that is respect. RECOGNITION as a SELLER. TEAM. COMMUNITY.

Does ebaY do this today? I doubt it. Now I’m a “commodity”, I’m not even a “customer” anymore. I’m a nothing.

And you want to know why we’re upset…

Patricia 1On April 16, 2008 at 5:24 pm Said:

Noblespirit - I can stop your first paragraph dead in its tracks. I’m an artist - everything I sell on ebay is made by yours truly. I do not buy to resell. That said, the playing field is so unlevel and has been for years now - since 2004 in fact when ebay instituted feature plus auctions. Instead of my items costing pennies to list - my fees are more like $20.00 plus per pop! That’s pretty unlevel to me. Ebay is NOT taking us into consideration at all. I can sell widgets and probably be a powerseller - however, that’s not what I do. I still make money for Ebay, stick to the rules, act accordingly and have the record to prove it. In return, I get buyers able to stand on my neck and wipe out a 10 year reputations I worked my buns off to maintain. Please…take another path because we don’t all come out of the same mold! Sorry, I actually lost the stomach to read farther than your first paragraph…I mean that honestly and with no malice :-(

Patricia 1On April 16, 2008 at 5:36 pm Said:

“But when eBay corporate sees good sellers migrate on to other marketplaces and buyer demand issues esclate, I believe they have to be appreciated for the pain they also feel in their business in the face of serious mounting competition.”

They caused it!!!!! Before January 29, 2008 I only had my website and occasionally listed on one other site and almost exclusively listed on Ebay. Since then, I’m on Onlineauctions.com, artandcraftauctions.com, artbyus.com, etsy.com, ioffer.com, blujay.com, ecrater.com and looking for more!…is this what ebay wants? Because its what I feel I (and a LOT of other sellers) have to do in order to exist after I’m wiped out at ebay and I can see that coming! If you think I’m alone then go to powersellersunite and look at the chart they keep with users on other sites….ALL those users USED to sell on ebay. Its no mystery that when you make is SO miserable for a seller they will naturally look elsewhere in order to protect their sales. Ebay has effectively killed the days when sellers listed with them exclusively. Believe me, the true path of ebay will show after May when the worst policies are instituted and sellers actually experience them. Right now we haven’t seen the worst - we’re putting up with a 66 percent fee increase and not much more - but when the real party starts I think the “noise” is going to be deafening.

DaveyOn April 16, 2008 at 6:02 pm Said:

@Noblespirit

Sorry, I have to disagree with some of your loftier points below:

“I don’t think there was a buck to pass regarding education. eBay can only strive to communicate it’s policy and intent.

When ebay oviously speaks with forked tongue to buyers and sellers when it comes to different DSR definitions for each constituency, they created a need for education that traces directly back to ill-conceived policy. Policy that hurts me as a seller, and creates distrust when a buyer learns the truth. It doesn’t take a genius to see the double-standard here, and who created it. It wasn’t me–I had no say in it nor did my community. eBay did in fact pass the buck to sellers in this case, to educate buyers. I should not be forced to educate where I didn’t have to before, due to eBay’s creation of speedbumps and unintuitive policies. I shouldn’t have to educate buyers on behalf of eBay as they throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks. Sellers should be more intent on developing their customer relationships than wasting time on things like the duality of DSR definitions. eBay in turn should be attuned to their customers, and I don’t have to repeat who that is.

A well-designed product, whether hardware, a user interface, or policies should be intuitive if a good user experience is to be assured. I posit that this is why eBay was successful in the first place–it worked, had no duality, and was intuitive.

“It’s up to us sellers to educate and inform ourselves and eBay with respect to the expected results, cause and effect, etc through practical experience, trial and error, etc.”

Or, we could expect the “partnership” you talk about, which involves sellers and buyers having input BEFORE some crazy policy is flung on us to see how much straw it takes to break our backs. This way we can avoid the wasted of time and bruises we all incur if only one party makes unilateral decisions, which is the current environment. One party talking and the other in forced listening mode is not a good partnership.

I’m afraid we could talk about lofty principles and goals all day long like a bunch of philosophers, and nothing would result (save us maybe feeling better about ourselves) if there is no listening and demonstrated action from the other direction. The only choice we have is with our feet, exploring new and better selling venues. While eBay is a pretty dominant force, that large South American river is looking pretty darned attractive and business-friendly to me as they add categories that my products fall into…

CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn April 16, 2008 at 9:27 pm Said:

@ Noblespirit

Quote: “eBay Trust & Safety does not have a full understanding of the practical application of many of the dymanics at work without the help of sellers.”

The problem is that even when sellers voice their opinions and problems regarding changes eBay plans to initiate, or has already blindly initiated, it appears such advice falls upon deaf ears. If eBay really needs the input of its sellers to make informed and accurate decisions, then it needs to ask for input prior to enacting such policies. eBay’s routine of instituting policy changes and then tweaking as problems occur is not a rational or trustworthy process for sellers to rely on. While ebay is tweaking its fumbling changes, the sellers are incurring negative impacts of their business. I do not appreciate my business and livelihood being used as a “test subject” for eBay’s changes backed with no actual facts and experience. It simply does not make good business sense.

Quote: “Once the marketplace establishes a definition of a reputable seller, it will then be ready to message that to the world. However, the message must be a positive one; and, yes…it must be earned.”

The problem that eBay faces is not due to the sellers, it is due to the lack of trust users have for eBay as a site and in its management. Amazon faces the same situation that eBay does, however the difference is that users trust that site because they believe in Amazon’s management, policies, and procedures. That is how my sales are able to be so high over there, not because people necessarily trust me as a seller, but because they know their purchase is protected by Amazon. As a seller, I have no problem selling there because I know that Amazon will protect me as a seller. The issue is trust in the site - not in who uses it. As a business owner and consumer I do not have faith in eBay’s ability to protect the buyers nor the sellers which use the site. It implements polices, but fails to research the issues fully and then make accurate decisions on a case by case basis. That responsibility falls squarely on eBay - not the users.

It is very simple. I am in the business to make money and to grow my business, not hand hold a corporation as it tries to find its place in the e-commerce community again. If a site does not provide my business with the proper, professional environment to further grow, then I leave that site in pursuit of one that will. eBay is a service and not a partner. I do not owe it any loyalty or consideration while it figures itself out. That is why so many professional sellers have chosen to leave eBay.

Quote: “How do we know this was the right thing to do, the right choices, the right changes, the right execution. Well, we don’t. We’ll need to work trough them together.”

No offense, but as a business owner such a position of uncertainty is unacceptable. My partner and I analyze every change in policy, procedure, and price changes before they are enacted. A business does not blind shoot darts at a board and say, “I think we will try this one next”. Such an attitude provides for a very unstable and uncertain selling environment which is not appealing or acceptable to any professional seller. If that is truely how eBay evaluates such changes, an attitude of “Well, we don’t [know]“, then my decision and response to eBay is very simple. “Give me a call when you figure it out.” Until eBay does, my business, my wares, and my customers will go elsewhere.

Quote: “I don’t think there was a buck to pass regarding education. eBay can only strive to communicate it’s policy and intent. It’s up to us sellers to educate and inform ourselves and eBay with respect to the expected results, cause and effect, etc through practical experience, trial and error, etc.”

When eBay openly tells buyers one thing (3 and 4 stars are good), yet such ratings prevent a seller from obtaining discounts, result in held funds, and damage to their seller reputation, that is eBay fault and responsibility. I do not believe that eBay is some child which needs an education on the effects their changes will have and requires sellers to point out the obvious deception in their instructions to buyers with regards to the DSRs. However, if eBay management is indeed that naive, then that is even more reason not trust in their abilities or their site. I believe the notion that eBay is some uneducated Goliath, is even more disturbing than the notion that eBay is just out of touch with the average user.

In spite of all that, we are still back to the basic principle. My business, nor any other seller’s business, should be used as a test subject in order to let eBay determine what is harmful and what is not. The resulting effect will be the demise of these small business while the experiment continues and the only entity left standing at their conclusions will be eBay. Such a position is completely unacceptable and even deplorable to any business owner.

On a side note, I truely hope that these discussions will be productive. It is the main reason why I started to post here, instead of the eBay forums. At least here it appears one member of eBay, Richard, has the ability and the desire to help initiate change. However, the main thing which must always be kept in mind is that there are other successful locations on the internet for professional sellers to advertise their wares. eBay had its foot in the door during the boom of the internet, which gave it an advantage, however since then the internet has exploded and competition is abundant. eBay needs to keep in mind that the advantage they once held is diminishing as more people educate themselves on how to market effectively on the web. They lost my business, and I’m sure many others, to their biggest e-commerce competitor, and if these blind changes continue to take place, then they will completely destroy what ever possible amount of respect they may still have with users like me.

Patricia 1On April 16, 2008 at 10:05 pm Said:

Seems we’re spinning our wheels here. Can’t get our point across and neither can they. :-(

DaveyOn April 16, 2008 at 10:13 pm Said:

@Noblespirit

I missed this earlier:

“But when eBay corporate sees good sellers migrate on to other marketplaces and buyer demand issues esclate, I believe they have to be appreciated for the pain they also feel in their business in the face of serious mounting competition.”

Sorry, I don’t appreciate their pain. They stuck the thorn in their own foot and further enabled their competition by policies they chose to implement, and they alone can remove it. eBay is choosing to drive their good sellers away by making their environment unfriendly to operate within and handling those sellers poorly, sort of like the playground bully who then wonders why nobody wants to play with him. Instead of setting these things right, they went around and stuck thorns in all of our feet and told us to shape up those things that they themselves did not model, namely good support of their customers. They are finally measuring us with standards that they themselves could only dream of living up to if applied in reverse.

I also can’t appreciate their pain if they continue to measure themselves by companies that they are not, or don’t recognize their own value proposition.

No doubt you read the Deutche Bank report on eBay? What did you think of it?

NoblespiritOn April 17, 2008 at 7:02 am Said:

Hi Davey,

I completely agree when you say that it would make a great deal of sense for eBay to work with the community on potential changes -> before -> they are rolled out. PESA has been pressing for this since inception. The product would clearly be much more viable and efficient. Until recently, that objective was not entirely clear to eBay corporate. I believe they are finally beginning to implement a new corporate culture, a new corporate attitude which is laying the ground work for management to be more proactive and to react more quickly to the needs of the marketplace. There’s a new management structure assimilatinf information and delegating actionable responsibility in more meaningful ways than ever before. But do they still have a long way to go to get it right? Of course, It’s only barely emerging as we speak. Meg began the process about 2 years ago.

When you and I and every other seller out there started on eBay there were no established business solutions, there were no standardized business models. Many sellers had to spend $100,000’s to develop auction management systems or bounce around from one to another until they found the one that fit their needs and goals. That situation has not changed. And eBay’s systems are still fraught with holes, friction and obstacles. Why? Because of the very nature of how vast and diverse the sheer number of different business models that operate on eBay. There is no standard definition of a reputable seller regardless of size, casual or professional, large or small. It’s clear there needs to be one. It’s clear that the new changes are attempting to find one. Is it here? No, not yet. Will we ever find it? At least we’re further along now than we were on day one.

One thing is also clear. The rest of the eCommerce landscape changes as suddenly as unsympathetically as many sellers feel eBay does. Unless you have control of your business, no matter where you go there are never any guarantees. Even your own website is no guarantee. There are many schools of thought regarding diversity. Although I sell exclusively on eBay, I encourage sellers to find what works for them. I encourage diversity, within your means, as long as it is not viewed as a magic bullet. Some sellers advise ‘going where the buyers are’ other sellers think they never really left, they just want a better place to shop. It’s all the right thing to do, depending how you do it. They key to eCommerce, where ever it takes place, is a reputable seller providing excellent choice, quality product with quality service, in a safe, relaible trading environment. That is the key. All of eCommerce is accelerating at such a phenomonal rate that no single individual or even individual marketplace can understand or cope. That is our shared objective with our marketplace partners, whoever they are. The closer we get to that objective, the more we earn control over our businesses.

Regards,

Joe Cortese

Patricia 1On April 17, 2008 at 8:55 am Said:

“There’s a new management structure assimilatinf information and delegating actionable responsibility in more meaningful ways than ever before. But do they still have a long way to go to get it right? Of course, It’s only barely emerging as we speak. Meg began the process about 2 years ago.”

They have lightyears to go in my estimation. If they lose one good seller because they left that seller wide open to having their reputation ruined - then they are lightyears away! The good sellers are who ebay had better learn to acknowledge before the majority of them goes off to friendlier sites. A good seller will attract the buyers ebay craves - a bad seller will drive them away! Its pretty simple and I have no golden parachute yet I practice this theory in my little business every single day. What I cannot abide is being thrown open to some nutcase buyer who has an axe to grind and figures they’ll take it out on me. Only someone with their head in the clouds would refuse to see this can and will happen. In looking for other venues, I have no recourse - I certainly may have no way to protect myself on Ebay and I’ll get NO respect from ebay as my auctions go down in their listings. I don’t care what ebay’s aim or goal is…this is callous and its WRONG and its WHY sellers are so outraged and its not about to go away any time soon. Its going to fester and grow as this policy is put into place! Nobody, but nobody to a man believes in their heart that ebay will protect sellers or take any real action to protect them no matter how badly a buyer treats them. This is what ebay has to overcome because it is destroying the environment and will get even worse when sellers lose their right to protect themselves. I should have a right - an opportunity, to correct a transaction no matter what the complaint. I’ve done so in the past which is why my record is clean and why I have more than double total feedback because of returning customers. I will NOT have that opportunity in the future! If you or ebay think that’s not a big deal - its the biggest deal that ebay has ever laid on us! Ebay will never be able to do what a good seller can do to make a customer feel safe and welcome - yet they are beating us to death with this no negative policy! There has to be a different, fairer way to protect buyers without cutting the throats of your best sellers!

BrendaOn April 17, 2008 at 12:41 pm Said:

Patricia 1

It’s called rewriting the parameters of allowable language and antics NOT ALLOWED IN FEEDBACK.

This would have been the logical fix. Establish no nonsense, you will be courteous or die, standards of behavior.

SIMPLE
SIMPLE
SIMPLE.

Other venues have no problem with this.

Patricia 1On April 17, 2008 at 1:27 pm Said:

Brenda - they insist on putting total blame for losing buyers on sellers. In the end they are only losing a lot of good sellers. Good sellers are the very thing that keep buyers coming back! The bad sellers are like roaches - they’ll stay and feed until they’re forcibly ousted. Such a shame!

CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn April 17, 2008 at 3:06 pm Said:

@ Brenda

“Other venues have no problem with this.”

With one exception, other venues do not link feedback ratings to listing visibility, held funds, restrictions and/or suspensions. In order to use other sites as a fair comparison, the elements and effects must by equal to one another.

The negative effects to sellers, as a result of the recent feedback change, are not equivalent to any other site.