eBay Australia announces Safe Payment Initiative

CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 04.22.2008 at 10:37 pm Said:

Hello Colin, and thank you for taking the time to post a response here.

One question I would really like answered, as I’m sure many other posters here would too, is why isn’t PayPal making buyer addresses confirmed for all sellers?

Amazon already does this, and has been doing it for some time now. In fact, they even protect you if the mailing address is a third party. It doesn’t need to be the buyer’s address. If eBay and PayPal really wish to “stay ahead of the innovation curve”, then I believe offering this service to all eBay sellers would go a long way in proving that to be the case.

Another thing, it isn’t the fact that eBay is changing that bothers everyone so much, it is how eBay is changing. I think that eBay has made many changes over the years that users have appreciated, such as gallery photos (although not the fee increase to do so), HTML code support in listings, eBay Messages, the Forums, just to name a few.

Just as eBay and Omidyar listened to its users with those changes, it needs to listen to the community now with regards to these new changes too. Primarily the fact that what eBay is trying to change into is wrong. How eBay is going about changing is wrong. Also, you need to fix the existing problems with eBay’s management and technology before introducing new ones, that will only serve to create more problems.

LurchOn 04.22.2008 at 10:54 pm Said:

Colin: Thank you for the nod. It’s good to *finally* hear someone within eBay agree with this point (which I tried to suggest from around 2000-2003ish every now and then with no response whatsover, so I gave up).

However - ah, gees - why do I have to slit my own throat… I hate being honest…

“Linda posted an article that read in part:
“PayPal sent him an e-mail explaining, ‘PayPal’s Buyer Complaint Policy only applies to shipment of goods, not to disputes about the attributes or quality of goods received.’”” to which you responded:

“his article is misinformed. As many of the posts in this thread have indicated, PayPal’s Buyer Complaint Process does provide quality of goods coverage (called Not-As-Described) for all eBay items. I have a very hard time believing that any PayPal customer service representative would email that to an eBay buyer.”

Um yeah - well, here’s the deal. We sold a vintage, sealed double LP to someone. They paid with PayPal. We shipped. They claimed that the first LP was warped. I was (and conveyed) *relatively* certain it was not warped on shipment, but that it can sometimes happen in transit, particularly with an older sealed LP. I also admitted I could not guarantee that it was not warped when shipped, as it was sealed, but that I could assert it didn’t appear to be. I told them to send it back to me and upon receipt and verification that it appeared to be what I sent (an unplayed LP in regards to the first record where warpage was claimed), I would refund: a) bid price; b) shipping; c) shipping to return it to me. His response was that he shouldn’t have to do that and opened a PayPal claim. I sent all of this info in response to the claim. I won based on:

“PayPal’s Buyer Complaint Policy only applies to shipment of goods, not to disputes about the attributes or quality of goods received.”

I was ok with this, as I didn’t really belive the guy, but it does happen.

And for the record, if I did agree with the 1998 bit in the way presented here - it may not be in the way I intended. I realize things have shifted, but was rather referring to the core concepts and attitude that eBay portrayed and tried to reinforce and *tended* to be existed by the user base. There’s the problem: for so many people, it’s no longer fun, and eBay really has instigated, fostered and contributed to this over the years.

Thanks for the nod! It’s good to know there’s someone there on board with the ombudsman concept!!

Patricia 1On 04.22.2008 at 11:04 pm Said:

CRULE!!!!! You don’t remember me but I remember you. Met you in New Orleans Ebay Live, 2004 and even have a picture of you and me. So nice to see you here…really! You probably don’t remember me…little old gray haired lady.

Colin RuleOn 04.22.2008 at 11:06 pm Said:

CrunchyPostingGoodness asked “why isn’t PayPal making buyer addresses confirmed for all sellers?”

As Rajiv said at the last eBay Live, that’s the ultimate goal of all these expanded seller protection efforts. We rolled out to Power Sellers first, but it’s clear where all this is heading. I can’t say when it will happen, but I know what the eventual objective is, and it’s exactly what you describe. As Rajiv put it, he wants to make every address confirmed on PayPal. Which of course would mean the end of confirmed addresses.

Also: “it isn’t the fact that eBay is changing that bothers everyone so much, it is how eBay is changing…what eBay is trying to change into is wrong. How eBay is going about changing is wrong. Also, you need to fix the existing problems with eBay’s management and technology before introducing new ones, that will only serve to create more problems.”

I understand your point here, CrunchyPostingGoodness. (It’s odd to address you as CrunchyPostingGoodness, but that’s all the ID I have, so I’ll stick to it.) There’s a lot of controversy about these changes in particular. When I first heard about some of them – in particular, the feedback changes – I was extremely skeptical myself. But this is the burden of leadership… you get all the information you can, and then you make the best decision you can, often under pressure. And the fact was that eBay was facing some serious challenges, and the required bold action. I give credit to the execs for honestly facing the problem and then coming up with an aggressive response, one they knew wasn’t going to be the most popular. And the fact is, the early indications are that these changes are having the desired effect.

I’ve been part of the company for 4.5 years at this point, and I think it’s staggering to see how much the site has improved. The interface and tools we had in 2003 when I joined were laughably primitive compared to the site we have now. I think it’s part of the nature of eBay to take the progress we’ve made for granted, and to see only the challenges. That’s good, because it keeps us focused on what we need to do next, but it creates a warped view of history. I’ve seen our technology and management evolve rapidly over the past few years, and I think they’re stronger now than I’ve ever seen them. So maybe we just see things differently on that count.

Colin

SandiOn 04.22.2008 at 11:08 pm Said:

@Mr Rule:

First thank you for posting, and I hope you will return, or Richard will ask you this and let me know your reply.

I have always considered you the most hinest, straight forward in the ebay/Paypal management. I have read your blog on the ecommerce site,

In March you wrote in the Blogger (I think that’s its name) how the number one complaint from buyers is non-receipt of an item (I personally think your take on buyer dissatisfaction is more accurate than the dribble Mr Donahue, etc are trying to pass off).

You also acknowledged alot of misunderstandings have nothing to do with a bad/poor seller, but uneducated new buyers. You gave an example example to illustrate this.

That said, I guess Mr Donahue is listening to you as much as he is to us - sorry about that, he should be listening to you.

Digs aside, have you had the opportunity to put your perspective into the conversations of all these changes? Mr Donahue has definately moved Paypal into the unfriendly fire zone with the bogus 21 day hold crapola, Paypal only, etc - but you genuinually always come off as an extrememly fair, reasonable person everytime I read anything you write/speak - you seems to also have just plain common sense, something Mr Donahue appears not to have an ounce of.

Do you or does paypal get listened to? You actually get to hear both sides to every dispute much more than ebay ever does, you actually have real live human beings who answer the phones. Could you do a better job?

Of course, I personally think alot of the changes announced and that will be coming down the stream are putting a larger burden on Paypal, allowing ebay to continue to be absent in enforcing or even realizing what the policies are actually doing to the community.

Thanks for yout time.

SandiOn 04.22.2008 at 11:10 pm Said:

oops:

hinest=honest

Sorry I CAN spell, I just can’t type.

Patricia 1On 04.22.2008 at 11:11 pm Said:

Crule - in spite of everything ebay is changing - they say for the better they cannot deny that sales are down. Right now I have a 20.00 feature plus auction listing with only 30 views after over 2 days of running. This is unheard of. I have to ask - what is ebay doing to actually bring buyers back to its site? I know they’re bashing us sellers to death - I feel that’s part of the problem because ebay cannot see that sellers are buyers too. Everyone I know has cut down on listings or left the site altogether and are listing elsewhere. I am even listing elsewhere after 10 years of dedication to ebay. I have to ask…what in the world are they doing and will they explain it to us BEFORE we all leave???? I can no longer list and relist and see my listings roll off without bids. This has been the environment for a lot of us since best match began. They keep saying they want to small sellers but actions speak louder than words and I just cannot see them keeping small sellers at this rate.

Patricia 1On 04.22.2008 at 11:23 pm Said:

If you come back Colin:

C Rule, Me and Helen
I’m the short on

CrunchyPostingGoodnessOn 04.23.2008 at 9:21 am Said:

@ Colin

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond again! I believe you are turning out to be a great source of hope for sellers, like myself, who have left eBay due to the lack of concern, acknowledgment, and support by eBay staff and management. Honestly, if eBay representatives did that more often, on the eBay forums, eBay ink, by phone, and non-canned emails, I think it would help to build trust again in eBay.

As to my posting id, most just refer to me as Crunchy. I use the same posting id on the eBay forums, and just thought I would carry it over to here, so people would know it was the same person posting these ideas.

I will continue to monitor the PayPal Confirmed Address for all progress. When all address are finally confirmed, perhaps our business will choose to sell on eBay again. Our main concern is for international shipments and items which are shipped to others as gifts - which most of our customers are and do.

“But this is the burden of leadership… you get all the information you can, and then you make the best decision you can, often under pressure.”

Yet that is part of the problem - the information is not accurate. I have participated in some surveys sent out by eBay and I can testify to the fact that the way they are written are done so where there can only be one possible result. As Brews stated earlier, such surveys would be laughed out of any college course as bias and skewed. Second, the idea that a decision was made “under pressure” also implies that it was made hastily. When things are done hastily, that means that they were not fully thought out, which causes users to lose faith in eBay.

“I’ve seen our technology and management evolve rapidly over the past few years, and I think they’re stronger now than I’ve ever seen them. So maybe we just see things differently on that count.”

I acknowledged several changes eBay has made for the better, and I agree that they have changed for the better in several respects. However, success in a few areas does not then lead to the conclusion that eBay is right on all counts and changes. I see where it has done good, but I only see the wrong it is doing now - in several aspects. Pride in something should never blind one to believe something is all knowing, just, and incapable of wrong.

I think eBay’s management is actually weaker now, then it once was, because they are not in touch with the troubles faced by the users. Omidyar was an average joe and he acted like an average joe, which is what made him so appealing to users. The founder of Amazon was an average joe, and is now a powerful executive, yet he still acts and operates as an average joe. eBay’s management team acts exactly like a “management team”. They act superior and pompous in the interviews, announcements, town halls, and other interactions with eBay users. I truely believe that executives must all take a course in how to be that way, as I hear the same “coined” phrases come from eBay management that I heard from practically every boss I ever had. It isn’t surprising that users react the same way employees do when they hear these “management phrases”.

I believe the reason why you are impressed with those writing here is because they are being open, honest, and blunt about their ideas and feelings. There is no sugar coating or hand-holding. That is what people respect. That is why I, and obviously many other posters, respect what and how you write. eBay management needs a lesson on how to behave and speak more like an average joe, rather than corporate management.

Patricia 1On 04.23.2008 at 9:38 am Said:

“I think eBay’s management is actually weaker now, then it once was, because they are not in touch with the troubles faced by the users. Omidyar was an average joe and he acted like an average joe, which is what made him so appealing to users. The founder of Amazon was an average joe, and is now a powerful executive, yet he still acts and operates as an average joe. eBay’s management team acts exactly like a “management team”. They act superior and pompous in the interviews, announcements, town halls, and other interactions with eBay users. I truely believe that executives must all take a course in how to be that way, as I hear the same “coined” phrases come from eBay management that I heard from practically every boss I ever had. It isn’t surprising that users react the same way employees do when they hear these “management phrases”.

Think you were spot on Crunchy. Out of every boss I ever had the only ones who got 110 percent from me were the ones who treated me with respect as another human being. I didn’t work for these bosses…I was made to feel like I worked with them. I’m afraid Ebay management fails miserably there with their “take it or leave it” attitude and their arrogance is blatant. Its something that can be felt by every seller and to some extent by every buyer. We’re just chips on a board being arranged and rearranged to suit the current revenue need of the company without any respect to how we can run our business longterm. There is no long thought out plan and a gentle uphill slope toward that goal. Its instant this and instant that all to suit the company and if you don’t like it or can’t make a profit then leave! All ideas that seem hastily thought up to us. The majority of sellers can’t sell in that kind of environment and buyers are being turned off as well.

MistyOn 04.23.2008 at 11:51 am Said:

Colin.. What has changed is that some undesirable sellers AND buyers have figured out the loopholes and weaknesses of the site. Our years of reporting them has fallen on deaf ears when it comes to eBay doing anything about them until they are forced to by law. This is why we are having and seeing the problems we are today because nothing was done yesterday when it was first brought to eBay’s attention by it’s honest and caring sellers and buyers.
I agree with the others that tiers need to be put in place so those small sellers who wish to remain just a hobby seller are not held to the same selling standards as those wishing to be high volume sellers. Being big or small does not change our values on providing good customer service or pride in our selling reputations, we take these things very seriously and want eBay to also take them serious which so far they have not shown us this same respect.

implogOn 04.23.2008 at 11:52 am Said:

Hi Colin:

I too read your post on the eBay Chatter blog that attributed the bulk of “Item Not Received” complaints to over eager buyer misunderstandings. Those same buyers now have my and all sellers’ reputations in their hands.

Lorrie Norrington excitedly tells us on the Announcement Board then repeats herself in an emailing today that sellers will be protected from negs from non-paying buyers. She then trips all over herself setting up conditions where a non-paying buyer CAN neg a seller if the buyer claims “item condition” as the reason for non-payment.

HOW CAN A BUYER CLAIM “ITEM CONDITION” FOR AN ITEM NOT SENT? HOW MANY SELLERS SEND ITEMS WITHOUT RECEIVING PAYMENT FIRST? I SHOUT BECAUSE THE EBAY REPS WHO CLAIM TO BE “LISTENING” ARE NOT HEARING.

Norrington’s exceptions as stated in her Ebay Announcement Board post on March 20th and today’s emailing, are you listening eBay…, MAKE NO SENSE.

Either Ms. Norrington is embarrassingly out of touch with the eBay buying/selling process or her written communications fail to convey her ideas clearly.

Those of us who have been with eBay for years have learned to embrace change. But when our ribs begin cracking while embracing change, it hurts and we’re going to make “noise”.

This past weekend I talked with a group of Power Sellers. Some were vaguely familiar with “some changes coming to eBay”. Some didn’t believe me when I outlined the changes. They will when they get negged by a bad buyer and can’t neg back.

We on this board are the early adopters — we investigated the changes and are now reacting, offering ideas and suggestions or as some would say, making “noise”.

I hope you and your colleagues have plenty of earplugs for the noise, no, the roar that will come from sellers as they begin receiving negs and are blocked from leaving them in May.

Thanks for stopping by.

Cheers!

implogOn 04.23.2008 at 12:24 pm Said:

@ Misty

I agree with your post.

The first time a scam was pulled on me was when I was selling Palm Pilots — I’m dating myself ; )

A buyer from Indonesia pays with a credit card issued to a retired woman in South Carolina. I called her and she had never heard of eBay. I played along with the Indonesian scammer while sending increasingly desperate emails to eBay’s “Trust & Safety”. I was told they could do nothing. eBay let the thief buy for 5 days before he was NARU.

I lost faith in eBay’s ability to police itself. I mentioned what happened to eBay’s Rob Chestnutt. He apologized and said something like “I understand your frustration” and “We have to do a better job.”

I saw the PayPal and eBay password phishing emails that began arriving a few years later as a threat to eBay and to all sellers. I had lost trust in eBay to protect the site so I traced the senders real email address and the ISP hosting the scam PayPal and eBay sites then reported them to the appropriate “abuse” or other contact addresses. Sometimes I would call the Sys Op. Occasionally I would call local police departments. I did this for years.

I was in an eBay discussion forum and saw a post saying the eBay was rewarding good members who helped the community with eBay swag. If you explained copying and pasting to a poster you might get a key chain. Tell someone how to upload a photo and you could receive a coffee cup.

I wrote eBay and told them I thought I deserved something for helping the community by killing phishing sites and later all the phishing emails I had forwarded (with headers) to spam@uce.gov,
reportphishing@antiphishing.org and spoof@ebay.com. The response I got from eBay was chilling and telling.

“We don’t reward community members for reporting fraud.”

I have never received anything from eBay other than invoices… wait a minute, I did get something from eBay. They obliterated around 100 of my auctions because the PayPal logo I used was a policy violation, it was too large! Now that’s protecting the community on an institutional level!

Patricia 1On 04.23.2008 at 12:25 pm Said:

“This past weekend I talked with a group of Power Sellers. Some were vaguely familiar with “some changes coming to eBay”. Some didn’t believe me when I outlined the changes. They will when they get negged by a bad buyer and can’t neg back.”

I so totally agree with this. Been saying all along that the biggest trouble will come as these policies are instituted and sellers actually experience them. I hope you folks have earplugs! Personally, I feel you are jumping off the ledge…convinced that you can fly so you didn’t bother with a pesky parachute!

MistyOn 04.23.2008 at 1:11 pm Said:

@ IMPLOG

Thank you, Yes it is amazing how blind eBay can be when they want to be to meet their bottom lines but what is even more amazing to me is now that these things are starting to catch up to them they want to place the blame on us sellers for their lack of diligence in their policy’s.
Yes we are making noise but our noise truly means something and is not just to cloud the facts and issues but to try to address them and resolve them so we can move forward but it is very difficult when our pleas fall on deaf ears and are treated like we know nothing about what is best for our business.
The phishing emails I have also received many of and reported them diligently as well. I don’t mind helping eBay police the site because that benefits all of us in the long run but it is very frustrating when our reports are ignored over and over again.
I have been selling many more years than eBay has existed so I know what works and is best for my business.
I hope eBay realizes this recent outcry from us on these issues is far more than just noise.